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#261737 - 07/10/13 03:38 PM Re: Pepper spray and wolf attack [Re: AKSAR]
Denis Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/09/09
Posts: 631
Loc: Calgary, AB
Originally Posted By: AKSAR
Originally Posted By: jzmtl
Could it depends on what type of spray you have? Like ours can only has 1% legally, which I'm sure works more like appetizer to the attacking animal.

Legally the EPA requires that the pepper concentration be between 1% and 2% for bear spray. Any products labeled and sold as "Bear Spray" in the US will be within this range. As indicated in links I posted upthread, this concentration has been shown to be effective by actual experience.

Also, jzmtl, confusion about the potency of US vs. Canadian bear spray comes from the differences between how the active ingredients are labelled and regulated in the 2 countries (similar to the Canadian vs. US beer alcohol content labeling differences that brought rise to the stronger Canadian beer myth).

As ASKAR quoted, in the US the EPA requires a concentration of 1% to 2% of capsaicin and related capsaicinoids. Health Canada, on the other hand, doesn't recognize related capsaicinoids so our products are regulated based on the percentage of capsaicin only. For example, the spray I carry is marketed as a 1% spray (the maximum in Canada, I think) but if you look at the actual specs, you'll see it is 1% capsaicin and .84% related capsaicinoids.

So our bear sprays are likely as potent and effective as those sold in the US, they are just labelled differently.
_________________________
Victory awaits him who has everything in order — luck, people call it. Defeat is certain for him who has neglected to take the necessary precautions in time; this is called bad luck. Roald Amundsen

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#261738 - 07/10/13 03:39 PM Re: Pepper spray and wolf attack [Re: AKSAR]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3819
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: AKSAR
Note that even if you had a gun, you would still be faced with the same problem of shooting at a moving target, while you are also moving, furiously pumping the peddles of your bike. A rather challenging shot, to say the least.


I've been trained to shoot on the move...but my minds eye balks at trying to picture the CRSO's face if I asked to bring my bicycle to his range for movement drills. I can't even make my mouth move to ask for shooting behind my back from a moving bike.

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#261739 - 07/10/13 03:46 PM Re: Pepper spray and wolf attack [Re: clearwater]
AKSAR Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1233
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: clearwater
Here is from one of the commenters.

"Susan Rogan • 14 hours ago &#8722;
..... The reason I am posting twice with stories is that I believe the wolves at least in the Yukon are becoming more bold, and I am not the only one who thinks this. ....."


I think there are indications that in areas where wolves and people live in close proximity, the wolves can get accustomed to people and become more bold. On the north side of Anchorage and on our local military base, a pack of wolves had taken a liking to killing and eating dogs, and had followed some people. This pack has now been eliminated:
Quote:
The wolves of Joint Base Elmendorf-Richardson in north Anchorage have paid the ultimate price for their fascination with people and their pets. Officials of the Alaska Department of Fish and Game says state wildlife biologists, with help from a state-sanctioned trapper and military personnel, have over the course of the winter managed to kill nine of the animals. They are thought to be members or former members of a pack that had developed a taste for dogs.

Dogs, unfortunately for the wolves, are often accompanied by dog owners. Some of them became frightened when wolves threatened their pets, and state wildlife officials began to get increasingly nervous about the lack of respect wolves were showing the pet owners.
---------------snip------------------
Tissue, bone and hair samples from the wolves killed over the winter are now being analyzed. That should help state biologists determine the dietary habits of the animals. Wolves living on the outskirts of Anchorage predominately feed on moose, Dall sheep and -- in the summer -- salmon. There is some curiosity as to how large a part of the diet dogs had become for some of these wolves. Loose dogs are a pretty easy target, and untold numbers of them disappear in the Anchorage area every year. There are also some questions as to what else the wolves might have been eating.

Some have wondered whether they might have become habituated to humans on the bases as much because of easy access to garbage as the access to dogs. Fish and Game did warn base residents that "to prevent future problems, area residents must take precautions not to leave out garbage, pet food, or other attractants that might draw wolves near homes and into neighborhoods."
_________________________
"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more."
-Dorothy, in The Wizard of Oz

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#261740 - 07/10/13 03:47 PM Re: Pepper spray and wolf attack [Re: AKSAR]
Denis Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/09/09
Posts: 631
Loc: Calgary, AB
Originally Posted By: AKSAR
Note that even if you had a gun, you would still be faced with the same problem of shooting at a moving target, while you are also moving, furiously pumping the peddles of your bike. A rather challenging shot, to say the least.

A plus for the bear spray in this case was that while it didn't stop the wolf outright, possibly due to the improbability of being completely on target in this scenario, it sounds like it did slow the wolf down enough to allow the cyclist to ultimately get to safety. I would think the wide dispersion the bear spray provides was a significant factor in this.
_________________________
Victory awaits him who has everything in order — luck, people call it. Defeat is certain for him who has neglected to take the necessary precautions in time; this is called bad luck. Roald Amundsen

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#261742 - 07/10/13 05:52 PM Re: Pepper spray and wolf attack [Re: Denis]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3819
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Denis
A plus for the bear spray in this case was that while it didn't stop the wolf outright, possibly due to the improbability of being completely on target in this scenario, it sounds like it did slow the wolf down enough to allow the cyclist to ultimately get to safety. I would think the wide dispersion the bear spray provides was a significant factor in this.


And you're much less likely to injure or kill someone by accident if you miss.

I carry a pistol essentially everywhere it's legal for me to do so, and it's hard for me to figure out how that would have helped me in this situation before the rider was able to dismount his bike.

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#261743 - 07/10/13 06:41 PM Re: Pepper spray and wolf attack [Re: AKSAR]
Glock-A-Roo Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 1076
Originally Posted By: AKSAR
Originally Posted By: Glock-A-Roo
Another point about this story: the bicyclist was spraying while moving, at a moving target ......... I still would have wanted a gun.

Note that even if you had a gun, you would still be faced with the same problem of shooting at a moving target, while you are also moving, furiously pumping the peddles of your bike.


Negative, Ghostrider! I would have stopped, let the wolf get closer, and shot the everloving shiite out of it.

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#261745 - 07/10/13 06:58 PM Re: Pepper spray and wolf attack [Re: Glock-A-Roo]
AKSAR Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1233
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: Glock-A-Roo
Originally Posted By: AKSAR
Originally Posted By: Glock-A-Roo
Another point about this story: the bicyclist was spraying while moving, at a moving target ......... I still would have wanted a gun.

Note that even if you had a gun, you would still be faced with the same problem of shooting at a moving target, while you are also moving, furiously pumping the peddles of your bike.


Negative, Ghostrider! I would have stopped, let the wolf get closer, and shot the everloving shiite out of it.

I don't think so Glock. According to the link in the original post the wolf "..... raced forward and attacked my panniers, in the process ripping my tent bag and spilling my poles onto the highway." If the wolf was close enough to rip your panniers he would have been ripping "the everloving shiite" out of you the instant you slowed down! By the time you actually stopped, you would have been lunch.
_________________________
"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more."
-Dorothy, in The Wizard of Oz

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#261746 - 07/10/13 07:12 PM Re: Pepper spray and wolf attack [Re: AKSAR]
Glock-A-Roo Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 1076
Originally Posted By: AKSAR
I don't think so Glock. According to the link in the original post the wolf "..... raced forward and attacked my panniers, in the process ripping my tent bag and spilling my poles onto the highway." If the wolf was close enough to rip your panniers he would have been ripping "the everloving shiite" out of you the instant you slowed down! By the time you actually stopped, you would have been lunch.


You are assuming that all the facts of the event are written up with an accurate timeline in that article, and that there are no gaps in the narrative. Was there was a time gap where the guy could have gotten off the bike and had time to draw a pistol? Is that bicyclist qualified enough to say that there was no point in time where he could have shot the wolf, had he been armed? My post was based on MY experience and training, not the bicyclist's.

Would there have been risk in acting decisively? Certainly. You pays for your ticket and you takes your chances.

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#261747 - 07/10/13 07:50 PM Re: Pepper spray and wolf attack [Re: Glock-A-Roo]
Denis Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/09/09
Posts: 631
Loc: Calgary, AB
I'm going to have to side with ASKAR on this one; it just doesn't sound like there was time to stop & let the wolf get closer. The wolf was on him once he noticed its presence and I'd wager most wolves are capable of keeping up with, and easily overtaking, most cyclists (I believe wolves can hit upwards of 60 kph). Note the following:

Quote:
This surreal moment of shock and confusion passed immediately was the “dog” lunged for my right foot and snapped its jaws just missing my pedal.

WOLF!!! At this point I received the biggest jolt of adrenalin I have ever had in my life. Without so much as a thought I shifted my bike to the highest gear possible, started to mash the pedals like never before, and reached for the bear spray in the handlebar bag. I threw off the safety and gave the wolf a quick blast in the face which served to slow him down so that he was now 20 feet behind me but still not stopping. He hung back for maybe 20 seconds and then raced forward and attacked my panniers, in the process ripping my tent bag and spilling my poles onto the highway.

Based on this, it sounds like stopping (without deploying the bear spray) would indeed have resulted on the wolf being on him immediately. It sounds like the only way he was able to stay ahead of the wolf was due to the spray's ability to at least slow down the wolf.

I think this is one of those scenarios where both bear spray and a firearm would've provided the best chance of survival. It sounds like there may have been an opportunity for a proficient individual to use a firearm if they first used the bear spray to get some distance between the attacking wolf and themselves. Alternatively, without spray, an individual with only a firearm likely would have had the unpleasant task of trying to ready and use the firearm with the wolf already in contact with them.
_________________________
Victory awaits him who has everything in order — luck, people call it. Defeat is certain for him who has neglected to take the necessary precautions in time; this is called bad luck. Roald Amundsen

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#261784 - 07/11/13 04:58 PM Re: Pepper spray and wolf attack [Re: clearwater]
Colourful Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 87
Loc: Yukon

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