OK, we've already ventured into dangerous territory by discussing guns, but we're handling it well so I thought I'd start a new thread, rather than continue to sidetrack and risking the other one.

Our family is in the early stages of buying a gun. (And taking Hunter's education courses, licensing, FA/CPR recertification, etc...) Hubby grew up in the country, and hunting and guns were part and parcel of that. One of his buddies has just rediscovered hunting and that's moved our own gun purchase up the priority list. One of our primary goals of getting a gun is subsistence hunting. We have no intention of shooting animals for sport, but rather to help put food on the table.

In addition to hunting in the forests and fields around his home, hubby also grew up going target shooting at the gun club. That's definitely something we want us all to do together and purpose number two for this gun.

Based on hubby's experience and what little I've learned so far, we're thinking about a 410/22 combo or a straight 22. It's my understanding that a 22 is a good beginners gun, and a 410 for more accomplished shooters going after slightly bigger game. We've got a very tight budget, which makes the combo appealing, but I understand that it might be too much gun, at least for us beginners and little guys.

What say you?

Let's stay on topic. We're talking guns for beginner and families, to be used for legal and responsible subsistence hunting. That's it. No ethics, politics or social commentary, OK? I really want your help with this so le's not make the mods do their job, OK?

In another thread, Byrd_Huntr said: "For the price of a new double gun, you could probably get a nice used .22 AND a used 20ga."

I completely agree. The price of over/unders is insane. I'd be scared to take it out of the display case. What good is that?

Much better to go with an individual .22 and a shotgun. These are the firearms that were found in every pioneer household in Canada. I would bet that if you make some contacts, you could get a pair of perfectly serviceable used items for a couple hundred bucks or so, total. There's nothing wrong with single shots either; they're simple and robust, and in fact I prefer them. I doubt you're planning to go to war anytime soon.

You'll pay through the nose for those boutique shotgun gauges. Go for a 12 ga. and tailor the shells you buy to your needs (and tolerance for recoil). You can get low report 12 ga. shells that are quite inexpensive and have much less recoil.

My 5c.

If you are on an extremely limited budget, and decide you really do want a .22/.410, then here's one for you:




It is shown above with the .22 barrel installed, it came with a .410 barrel also (not shown in the pictures). This is my "car kit" survival rifle. Only cost me $69 two years ago (granted, that was a VERY good sale price!) I added the rear aperature sight and the sling.

It's a Rossi Youth Combo gun. Single shot. It's available as .22/.410, and also as .22/12ga (or is that .22/20ga? - I can't remember). The thing only weighs 3-1/2 lbs with the .22 barrel in place. And you'd be surprised how accurate this little inexpensive thing is. Not a competative target gun, but perfectly fine for a survival gun.

Some people that use this for a survival gun remove the buttplate on the rear of the stock (which is hollow), stuff the stock full of their survival gear (and ammo), then use a slip-on rubber recoil pad to close it all back up and hold everything inside. You obviously don't need a recoil pad for a .22, but in this case it is serving as a simple closure to hold stuff inside. It also increases the "length of pull" of the rifle so it becomes adult sized. Some day I will do this with my rifle, but I just haven't gotten around to it yet. There is no pressing need for me to store gear inside the stock, since I have it adequately stored elsewhere in my kit. And I am already adept at shooting a rifle with a short LOP.

From the other thread, now moved here:
---


While deer CAN be taken with .410 slugs (it's legal in some states, illegal in others), I would consider it only in a survival situation, for someone who is experienced with their firearm, is a good shot, and knows where to place the shot. .410's are generally used by either: 1) experts, or 2) children and recoil sensitive adults.

Thanks guys. Keep it coming. As I said, we're in the very early stages of this process. Early as in we agreed a long time ago that our son's tenth birthday would be about the right time to consider it and, after much contemplation, I've finally decided that, yes, this is something I want us to do. Hubby's been answering my gazillion questions, letting me guide the conversation, and waiting patiently for me to come around. (We never did start that marriage advice thread, did we? LOL!) Now it's decisions and financing time.

Tight budget....

I'd think along several lines:

The combination is a nice start with the .22cal over the .410 and a single package means a single purchase.

Unless you have a specific purpose for the .22cal, i would look at a 20ga or 16ga shotgun. That would not be too much recoil but very versatile. You pick the load for what you want to accomplish. Rifled slugs or 00 buck for large game (deer), #4buck or #6 shot for large game birds (geese, ducks, turkey) or (#6) small critters (rabbits, squirrel). #7 1/2 or #8 shot for small birds (blackbirds) or skeet.

Shotgun shells are still plentiful the last time I checked. 16ga can sometimes be hard to find at certain times of the year. I've never had problems finding .410ga or 12ga shells. I've never owned a 10ga so I don't know available those may or maynot be. I haven't owned a 20ga for 20 or 30 years either so I don't know how available those shells are.

.22cal rounds have gotten rather difficult to find in quanties larger than 50 rnd boxes. They are available but one has to search a bit for them.

The costs of ammo has now doubled.

With target shooting, plinking and hunting in mind, I'd go with a .22 LR bolt action rifle. Back when I had one of the Savage .22LR/.410 combo guns, I never used the .410.

If it was going to be used exclusively for hunting I might go with the combo gun, then again, depending on the game available, I might not. For serious wingshooting, a 12 ga or 20 ga is more practical, I've just never seen the need of a .410 for small game or the usefulness for larger game. YMMV

OTOH a bolt action or semi-auto .22LR rifle can take a wide variety of small game and they give you a follow-on shot. With the over/under combo guns your follow-up shot is not another .22LR round.

There are a lot of good .22 LR rifles available from many manufacturers. With combo guns you have a much more limited selection.

How about the CZ 453 Varmint in .17HMR

http://www.gunblast.com/CZ453.htm

An Enfield No9 Mk1 might be a little too much of a cool rifle to handle!

My suspicion is that buying separately may be comparable to buying a combo. I'd also guess separates are more robust than combos. But you're in Canada, right? Maybe the costs there are different.

To echo wildman, yes, .22LR ammo is hard to find these days, at least in the US. But this shortage is probably temporary.

You may want to budget for accessories and additional expenses. You'd need to get a cleaning kit, a case, a gun lock (esp. if you have kids around), and probably a sling and a cheek rest to make the effective "comb height" right for you. You may want better sights, or possibly even a scope. Let's not forget safety equipment: ear muffs, glasses, and a hat (to prevent the casing from landing between your face and the glasses -- yes, that's happened to people!). Am I missing anything? Maybe a shooting mat? If you get a shotgun, you may need a dump bag for the shells. All these could cost as much as the rifle.

You may want to get a trigger job. If there is good aftermarket support for your gun, you can even do it yourself with a kit -- if you're dextrous and like putting mechanical parts together.

If you're going to end up with a collection, a gun safe is a good idea. I like having a dedicated, sturdy range bag, but you can get away with a plastic grocery bag.

Take a look at Marlin 795 and Ruger 10/22. The latter has a lot of aftermarket support, and you can modify and customize to your heart's content. The former has the reputation of being a bit more accurate out of the box. Both are fairly cheap.

I know you said you are interested in hunting. You never know what situation you'll find yourself in, but just keep in mind that .22 is not a good defense round.

Jacqui...arguably the most prolific .22lr down here in the US is the Ruger 10/22 autoloader... they use a rotary magazine that holds 10 cartridges, but in .22lr (long rifle) only...there are several configurations including a take down model... you need to be more vigilant shooting an autoloader as compared to a bolt action, as shooters tend to count shots and get lax on inspecting for a round in the chamber... good training is a must... that being said, there is a lot of utility for an auto loading .22lr... I've worked with many ladies and men of smaller stature that after their first smack in the cheek bone, or black and blue bicep from incorrect hold of a shotgun... there was no way they would ever become proficient with one... the solution was a 10/22... sufficiently accurate, easy to place into action, light weight and easy to handle...and multiple shots without requiring a grip change to work the bolt, lever or slide... a loaded magazine can be stored in a separate location if that is deemed something you would want to do...I used one (with a whole lot of extra money dumped in) to shoot the Chevy Sportsman's Team Challenge for 5 years... and was one of the most fun shooting games I've played

I do like Mainepreppers shotgun for hunting geese.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alq6i5AHr20

Pretty ambitious wanting to take out the whole V low flying formation.

Wow, 'Jac, you've opened the floodgates. Ask our 'Murcan cousins about guns? Well heck, they wouldn't have a single solitary opinion about that, would they?

As with any tool, the starting point is: what exactly do you want to achieve? And how much are you willing to spend to get started?

Psst: Get your credentials. Then get yourselves a .22. Talk about borrowing a deer rifle. One small, practical, tested step at a time.

+1 on the separate .22 & shotgun.

If skeet shooting or bird hunting are an option, I'd definitely go with a 20ga over the .410. The 20ga has more recoil but it will be much more effective. Ammunition will also be more widely available for the 20ga. In normal times down here, anywhere that carries ammunition probably has 20ga & 12ga. I wouldn't go with a 16ga or 12ga. They are a BIG step up in recoil (I have never shot one with reduced recoil loads). What type of country are you going to be hunting? For upland hunting (in brush/woods for squirrel, grouse, deer, etc.) you will probably want to get a shorter barrel.

For a 10 year old, I'd start with the .22. Especially on a tight budget, you could let the shotgun wait for a couple of years. I don't remember how old I was when I started shooting a .22 with my granddad but i didn't start hunting with a 20ga side by side until I was a teenager.

P.S. Do NOT shoot nearly straight up (butt of gun pushing down on top of shoulder) with a 12ga if you end up with one in the future. BTDT

AFLM... yeah... but it's fun to beat them with an 9 round tube fed Benelli M1S90, that goes bang every time

How on Earth do you convince the ducks to line up inside the little tarp shacks? You really do have to share that trick with me.

I suggest you add a decent air rifle to your inventory with which to practice. I don't know what your ammo prices & availability are up in the Great White North, but down here ammo is hard to find and expensive when you do. BBs and pellets are cheap.

As for caliber, what in particular do you plan on hunting? .22s are good for squirrels and rabbits but any bigger critter can be problematic. I'm a fan of .22wmr (aka .22 mag) and headshots but the .22wmr ammo costs a lot more than .22lr cartridges.

-Blast

Doug... shot my first and only duck about 50 years ago.. a wood duck that had fed on salt water fish.. it was terrible... they have been safe from me ever since....I shoot the little round guys made out of clay...

Without knowing what it is you'd be wanting to hunt, it is difficult to give any recommendations. You don't hunt rabbits with the same thing you hunt elk with or the same thing you hunt quail with.

I'd say, "just buy a .22 rifle". Anything else can come after that. .22's are cheap if you stick to the common ones and don't go high-end or exotic. You can learn to shoot with a .22. The ammo won't cost you much (current times in the US this isn't a true statement, but things will be getting back to normal soon). Typically 500 rounds will cost you less than $20. You just can't beat that for learning and having fun. Sure, by the time you get around to hunting deer (if ever) you won't be doing that with a .22. But if you ever get to that point, the time to start looking into appropriate rifles for that is when you can say "I am going to hunt deer", not when all's you can say is "I *might* hunt deer".

But you never said what you were considering sustenance hunting. If you were talking about rabbits, then a .22 is perfectly fine for that. Preferable, actually. You don't pull out your surplus Mosin-Nagant to plink at bunnies ... unless you want to have to search the next county over for the remains.

This is totally self serving, because I really want your help sorting through the mountain ranges of info and choices out there, but you can also consider it an apology if I've been a *itch over the past few months, or this week even. Pregnancy and life with a newborn have gotten the best of me a few times. Thanks for your patience!

OK, more on purpose: Squirrel, rabbit, duck, pheasant and turkey are all options for us. Possibly deer somewhere down the road.

We haven't landed on a budget yet. We want to get an idea of options first. I'm on mat leave and hubby just got laid off last week so we're kind of on hold. We still have a lot of work to do before we buy something, so we're not in a rush and can keep putting our pennies away until we get all that done and figure out what we want.

Best to look up your province's fish-and-game regs for each of these species.

Squirrel and snowshoe hare are probably for the taking at any time, and a .22 is the tool.

Duck, pheasant, and turkey are probably seasonal, and (my best guess) a scattergun is required. Steel shot over water, which ups the cost.

Deer is also seasonal, but there can be many seasons. In some places up here, there is a much wider season for bow and shotgun hunting for whitetail, especially in the zone immediately outside the suburbs; they are so successful that the only other option is for people to thin the herd using their bumpers/windshields.

Doug has pretty much hit the nail on the head. Bigger the game, the bigger the gun needed. You might want to narrow the "purpose" a bit to something like "survival hunting" or "recreational hunting" or even both. Although there may be some debate, here in the east, most folks tend to look at the .22 as a near ideal "survival hunting" rifle. This still is a good starter rifle to learn and master before you invest in a larger weapon. Here in Maryland, deer are mostly taken with shotgun (12 ga) and Bow -- rifles are getting more an more rare for deer because of the range of the rounds and the proximity to "civilization", thus creating fewer area where rifle are permitted, so the advice to know what is permissible in your area is key.

Bottom line, IMO, the best is to start small and inexpensive, i.e. a .22.

You can't beat a 12 gauge pump for versatility and reliability. There are many different loads out there to increase your options, including signal flares (rare). A basic 22 is highly useful and perfect for younger folks.

If you get something in the shot shell, centerfire category, you might want to consider handloading ammo. Using less extravagant equipment, it is very cheap, a fascinating pastime in its own right, and you can increase the range and versatility (there's that word, again) of your weapon.

=======================
I agree,Ruger 10/22 is my fav hands down,accurate,reliable and infinite upgrades and parts available.

But on the 410 I will break with the crowd and say its a good gun.Its perfect for training and small people,you can step up later to 12 gauge if you decide you like shotties.

You dont mention defense but 410 has a lot of fans for that too,its smaller everything makes it suitable to all size of users I hear too,yet remains a formidable weapon,never say never,bad things happen..... (Dont own one,know Fans of gun who do)

I think your choices are perfect for beginners.For training children,again PERFECT choices in my not so knowledgeable opinion.

Other thing is join a rifle range and you will find all kind of experts who will HAPPILY school you,and at least here our range rats LOVE women shooters,they will have you shooting their guns (Boy is that fun!),which means you will get to see every possible gun and what fits YOU to a tee,range membership is a very good thing.

Mrs now knows what she would like going forward,especially true with handguns as they have to fit right,etc,as you know.

But do consider legislation and stay up to date,if you see a certain gun or something may be banned your way you might not want to own that weapon and then face hurdles to ownership.

Mrs and her 10/22....






Liked it waaay too much,so time for upgrades....watch out you mutant ninja zombie golf balls,Mrs has your number! EDIT-And Easter Bunny eggs adds Mrs




When you get into more shooting,archery is great fun,I know enough to get you started with a crossbow but oddly enough they are pretty expensive to get going with decent equipment,More than starting with guns....Mrs darn proud of that grouping,to hear her version its was 900 yards in a hurricane,LOL! (ok,I exaggerate....a little...)



After you buy all the things you need you are just better off buying the kit in the beginning IMO

http://www.amazon.com/Excalibur-Vixen-Cr...ywords=vixin+II



Excalibur Vixen II Crossbow Varizone Package
by Excalibur
5.0 out of 5 stars

Producing arrow speeds in excess of 285 FPS, the 150 pound Vixen II is a high performance crossbow manufactured specifically to fulfill the needs of smaller framed hunters, but with no compromise of quality or durability. The short, light draw and reduced length of pull make it the perfect choice for youth, ladies, or hunters of lesser stature Comes decorated in "Realtree HardwoodsTM" camouflage using the "Kolorfusion" process for amazing contrast and detail, is drilled and tapped to receive our scope and quiver mounts, and features quick detach sling studs. The velocity is 285 FPS, with a draw weight of 150 lbs. Velocity: 285 FPS, Draw Weight: 150 lbs. The package Includes, Vari-Zone Multi-Range Scope 2-4 x 32mm, Scope Mount, Scope Rings, 4-Arrow Quiver, Quiver Bracket, 4 Firebolt Carbon Arrows, 4 Field Points and Rope Cocking Aid.

This item is not for sale in some specific zip codes

when considering "subsistence hunting" my first pick is the 10/22 loaded with subsonics.

in non-sporting survival senario when only hunting small game (and when the cost/weight of ammo is weighed against the dressed weight of the game is included), i don't see the need for a shotgun (SG), because birds can be taken on the ground with a 22lr. (yes, this is non-sporting and illegal in most cases. i'm talking emergency survival only).

OTOH, if the consideration includes sporting uses, then both 10/22 and SG are useful tools.

for a simple safe inexpensive SG, i like the Stoeger side-by-side double-barrel Coach Gun in 12ga, which sell here for around $300

and while a 12ga sounds too powerful for kids, light loads are readily available that don't kick hard, yet allow the kids to grow into using more powerful loads as the need arises.

I've considered this myself, but at this time I just don't have the resources (especially the time) to go down this path right now. That said, I have looked into it a bit, especially the costs involved, and realistically the firearm isn't really the biggest cost; I figure a non-restricted course alone costs more than a basic .22. Range costs are also a big factor unless you have easy access (or the time) to use crown land.

That said, looking around at a couple Canadian online retailers, the .22 / .410 combination that I could find (Savage Model 42) runs around $470. I've been watching "Out of the Wild: Alaska" recently so I think its kinda cool & see the appeal.

To follow the advice of others here, which seem to make a lot of sense, you could get a single-shot shot gun & a semi-automatic .22 for around $350 (H&R Pardner in 12 ga., 20 ga. or .410 & a Marlin 795), for example. For more fun, you could go the 10/22 route, but they are more expensive (starting around the $250 mark), but you can get high-capacity magazines for them (there are no restrictions on rimfire magazines in Canada). Take down models also seem cool, so that might be another consideration.

To get into deer, I'd personally think hard about adding a centrefire rifle and would want to budget at least $400 - $600 for a decent entry level model.

I have no clue what the used market is like, I haven't looked into that. But I kinda assume that the lower the cost new, the lower the cost used, but I know that doesn't always hold true for all things.

All that said, keep in mind this is coming from someone who has only read the advice of others around the internet and isn't yet moving beyond the curiosity stage of research.

I am going to go against the grain here and recommend AGAINST a 10/22. I'm not saying it's a bad rifle. It's just that it is no better than any other lower end semi-auto .22, yet it costs much more. The 10/22 shines when it comes to being customizeable, but for regular shooting concerns - accuracy, resistance to jams/feed errors, etc. - it is no better than, say, a Marlin 795 or a Mossberg Plinkster but it costs twice as much as either of those. And yes, I do have all three of these mentioned .22's so I can speak from experience. Again, there is nothing wrong with a 10/22, but unless you plan to customize your rifle, I see no need to pay double the cost of other rifles for a 10/22.

On another front, I would not recommend a semi-auto .22 for hunting anyway. You are limited in what ammo they will find acceptable to cycle their actions. I would go for a bolt, lever, pump, or single shot for hunting. With the non-semi choices you can shoot supersonic ammo, subsonic ammo, hypersonic ammo, powderless ammo... You are not going to have all those choices available to you with a semi. Pricewise, for basic/standard models, a single shot will be your cheapest, followed by bolt, lever, then pump in that order. I have all these action types, and my favorite, by far, is the lever (a Henry H001T Frontier Model octagon barrel specifically). Followed by the bolt and single shot tied. Followed by the semi-autos. I don't know where the pump will fit in, because I haven't had it long enough to have formed an opinion yet. The action is a little tight, and the forend has sharply angled edges that make it a little uncomfortable to pump. But once I do an action job on it that opinion may change massively. Sanding/smoothing the forend and refinishing that should help a lot too.

Denis... the Savage 24 C (Camper model) is IMHO a better choice.. it is .22lr/20ga... there is a larger variety of shot shell loadings for 20ga, and the slug is an option against dangerous predators... it is a take down model... try to find one on the used market, and the older wooden stocked ones have a better following than the current polymer ones...I let mine get away a long time ago...

a .410 is an experts shotgun if you are shooting aerial birds... 1/2 to 3/4oz of shot produces a very thin shot string

Where hunting Jack Rabbit is legal, (and young ones are tasty) something just a tad
stronger than 22 lr works better. 22 Magnum or cowboy action (reduced) cast bullet loads in a 30-30 are about perfect. Or a shotgun makes them easier to hit on the run. The Savage 42 in 22 mag/410 would be nice for that.

A single shot synthetic NEF handi rifle with a 30-30 and a 12 gauge barrel is what I own for deer and turkey. Williams
peep site for the rifle barrel. When accessing a hunting area by mountain bike, I don't worry about crashing and damaging an expensive rifle or scope. With the shotgun barrel, it weighs just over 5 lbs, so is very nice to carry. One screw and you
can break it down too. The single shot is nice for safety as it is quick to empty or check if loaded, say getting into vehicles or crossing fences. The Savage 42's and 24
are similar in this regard. I also have a 24 in 222 with 20 gauge, but don't get much use out of it as the game regs don't allow that combination gun for most things.

It depends entirely on what it is that you plan to hunt.

I would vote for getting a 12 gauge if you want a shotgun. Far more versatile than any .410. And shells are considerably easier to come by. Usually cost less too.

A 22 rifle is always a good starter gun.

I don't know what such things cost where you live but it is usually possible to get a used 12 gauge pump and a used 22LR rifle for around $100 each.

I am not a fan of gimmick guns.

The old Winchester Model 52 I was given at age 10 back in the '60's is now my youngest nephew's; it still shoots fine. I replaced it with a CZ-452 Lux.

.22 Shorts and Longs are very pleasant plinkers and from a long barrel make very little noise.

I would recomend a ROSSI multi barrel package.It is a single shot break action rifle.It has one lower assembly and as many interchangable barrels as you choose.You can then have a 22lr,20ga,12ga and a center fire like a 308 or 30-06.It is technically one gun as the lower assembly is what is tracked by its serial number.For cleaning the barrels I prefer BORE SNAKES.They make cleaning stupid simple.I would not reccomend a semiauto for some one just starting out.The disassembly to clean can be a little intimidating.

BOATMAN
John

two quick suggestions.

1. Instead of the 22 rifle, consider a rifle chambered in 22WMR (aka 22 magnum). This is a slightly more powerful version of the 22, but still is very family friendly. the ammo is also relatively inexpensive, but not as cheap as 22's. the 22WMR is an excellent general purpose cartridge (bullet) for survival purposes, because it will bring down larger game than the 22. technicaly you should not fire a 22WMR at a deer (it's illegal during hunting season). practically, if your family's lives were at stake then you could kill a small white tail deer with a close range shot (say 50 yards) at the head with a 22WMR. so a rifle chambered in this round is well worth contemplating.

2. I heartily support the suggestion of a 20-gage shotgum for general purpose survival and defensive purposes. in fact if you had to choose one long gun for all family purposes in the wilderness, then the 20 gage would be a mighty fine choice.

the 22WMR rifle would be fine for the kids and you. both you and the hubby could handle the 20-gage and be very effective for keeping everybody safe and putting food into the pot.

finally, if these options worry you at all - consider a high-caliber air gun. You can get air guns in 22-caliber and 25-caliber. these air guns are nothing to sneeze at - they will definitely kill small ground animals (rabbits, marmots) and all manner of birds. they are pretty accurate out to 50-75 yards. but the good air guns in these calibers are not cheap (maybe $500-$800) so you are not saving money. you can get pretty quiet versions though, so you can use them in your own yard for target practice.

good luck,
Pete2

When it comes to versatility, I have to concur with LesSnyder's recommendation of the Savage 24 C combo .22lr and 20 guage shotgun. I've shot this gun in .22WMR and 20 guage. Its a single shot, break barrel, so its simple which makes it easy to clean and leaves little to go wrong. Both rounds are readily available and relatively cheap. The .22lr is easy to learn on, compact to store and light to carry, and useful for small game. The 20 guage is good for everything from bird to deer (using rifled slugs), and they're almost as common as 12 guage when it comes to availability of different kinds of rounds. Finally, its a bit heavy, but it breaks down relatively compactly if you want to take it hiking or camping.

I'm going to go against the flow as well.

If you're looking for basic I'd go with a single shot, break action, single barrel 12 gauge shotgun and a bolt action .22 rifle with maybe a 5-10 round magazine. Both are inexpensive, reliable, and accurate.

If you're hunting you should be close enough to take care of business with a single shot or you shouldn't be taking the shot---ever!

Additionally, you can purchase inserts to shoot .22 out of the 12 gauge
http://www.gunadapters.com/categories/Shotgun-Adapters/12-gauge/

This gives you two firearms capable of firing the same ammo. There are other adapters available as well, but at least you've got a backup. I'm a fan of backups.

There's little game in North America that can't be taken with a 12 gauge either shot or slug. Just have to be close enough and hit the right target. You'll have to pattern the gun to see how it shoots and with different shot loads for birds but that's just part of sighting it in.

You can also shoot trap with it. Good place to start and learn your firearm.

Good luck.

How does this work? Would you need a new barrel?

Bingley... if you look at the pictures, you'll notice a shoulder at one end of the insert...in a single shot shotgun, there is a step machined into the barrel into which the rim of the shot shell fits... it keeps it from moving forward into the barrel, and holds it against the breech face so the firing pin can strike the primer to set it off...the insert is machined of rifle barrel steel (4140) and rifled, so it is the barrel for the sub caliber... the .22lr is probably offset slightly as it is a rim fire and not a center fired primer...the accuracy would be similar to any firearm with that length of barrel...modern rifle propellants typically need 65 calibers of barrel length to adequately burn the propellant... most pistol powders do a pretty good job in 4"...

Not a gun recommendation but a shopping recommendation.

Buy something used and inexpensive and simple in a .22. After you practice with it for six months you will have a much better idea of what you like and don't like about it and you can go shopping with a better idea of what to look for.

And, since the first gun was very inexpensive in the first place it should be easy to resell.

To put it differently, don't go shopping for your second gun first.

For Les:

So the little .22 bullet shoots out of the insert, going through a barrel that is much wider? Does that affect the accuracy?

I'm guessing that without the rifling in the barrel, it's not as accurate as a dedicated .22 rifle. But I don't know for sure. What kind of difference in accuracy are we talking about? I'm also guessing that the bullet won't go so far off the intended trajectory that it'd hit the damage the inside of the barrel.

For Jacquie:

Other posters are persuading me of the merit of getting a single-shot rifle/shotgun for hunting. But I do want to note that for target shooting, you just might appreciate not having to manually reload every round.

Here's a suggestion: how about doing the hunter's ed and join the gun club before making the purchase? I'm sure there will be people at the club willing to let you shoot their guns. Maybe that will shape your purchasing decision.

The differences between guns can be minute. Most modern guns are reliable and accurate enough for hunting, recreation, and defense. But if you take some courses and get some experience with different guns, you may discover your own personal preferences.

Or you could just buy a whole bunch of them, like your 'Murican cousins down here!

No quiet air guns in Canuckstan, ANY device that that could possible reduce muzzle report could land you in hot water for having a prohibited device. If the muzzle velocity is above 500 fps it's also classified as firearm and subject to all the legal restrictions that comes with it.

Air rifles can be had in almost any caliber up to .50, and can easily take down a deer, but they are expensive and require peripherals. However a regular .177/.22 is dirt cheap to operate (1 to 4 cents per pellet) and you can even set up a range in your basement if it's big enough, or backyard if local bylaw allows.

Thanks so much for your help with this guys. And thanks for not eating me alive. There are some forums out there that are intimidating and overwhelming for a gun newbie like me. You guys are the best!

I like the way you think, Bing. I think this is the direction we're going to go. Hubby probably has something in mind that he's keeping to himself for now, but he hasn't shot for a few years so slowly wading back in and getting the most recent lay of the land is probably the most sensible thing to do.

Bingley... yes... the .22 or other sub caliber projectile would not touch the original shotgun barrel, and be directed by the rifled insert barrel, and dependent on its quality of construction... I've never shot one, but should be as accurate as any short barrel pistol barrel...... I'm primarily a competition shooter and not a hunter.. most of my firearms are pretty game specific... I shoot a lot of 3 gun when possible, which is rifle, pistol, and shotgun... I did install a .22lr adapter for my AR15, and was very unhappy with the accuracy of shooting a .22lr projectile through a .223 diameter barrel with a fast twist rate to the rifling...I got no better than 3" groups at 50m.... I built a dedicated .22lr upper with correct twist rate and no chamber jump... the groups dropped to less than 1/2" at 50m... which is the limit of my old eyes and the 1.5x16 ACOG I use for a sight

In the USA, I'd suggest that you go out shooting with friends and see what worked well for you, or go to a range and rent guns there, especially if you were considering a handgun. If those options are open to you where you live, I'd suggest you try them out.

The good news is that it's easy to make friends in the shooting sports. If there are any events that you could go to and meet other shooters at near you, that would probably help immensely.

I'm a big fan of .22lr rifles for marksmanship training, practice, fun and small game. The most versatile long arm is certainly the 12ga pump. Frankly I'm reluctant to agree with any of the single-shot options, on the grounds that they're just not as much fun as pump, lever, bolt or semi-autos.

And, of course,any pump,bolt, or semi-auto can be used in single shot mode. I did this with my AR-7 when exposing my young sons to shooting sports. Single shot tends to conserve ammo, and leads one to concentrate on making the shot count.

Lot of excellent choices and advice have been given,Im sure you will find what you want in your price/versatility range.

Im not so excited about shotgun inserts,seem gimmicky.Im a get the tool for the job,not a compromise tool kind of person.

Just buy something with a strong tried and true reputation for quality,you will be pleased.Isnt that true in many things?

And start with the 22,nothing has a better reputation for making you want to shoot,and not over powering you into bad habits.

Cheap (very important for training),accurate,wont make you flinch....At least from what Ive heard,and what we did,FWIW,seemed like very good advice.

22's are fun guns for all ages.And you wont be overwhelmed in making that first purchase either.

Only 22's I dont like are the junk ones,other than that any form factor is fun its just get what you want,you dont have a huge investment that will go wrong.

Shot an old 22 PUMP from early 1900's,man what a slick gun.Smooth as silk,but cant remember what brand.

I doubt they have "Appleseed Shoots" in Canada, since they teach about the American Revolutionary War at the shoots. But an Appleseed event is one great way to learn shooting skills, safety, and marksmanship. Your info shows you in Ontario - don't know where in Ontario, but if it's close to the US border it might be well worth your time to make a trip to the US for a day of Appleseed shooting. There are lots of Appleseed events here. The instructors are great, and I'm sure they would arrange a loaner rifle for you to borrow at the shoot.

During the breaks from shooting they teach about the Revolutionary War while you relax a bit. They tell stories that are very interesting and entertaining, I would think even for a non-American. The shoots are two days long, but you can sign up for only one day if that's preferred. You get FULL days of shooting instruction and fun. You will shoot many many hundreds of rounds and really get to know your rifle. Appleseeds are dirt cheap. Women used to be able to attend the events for free, but they may charge some nominal fee now.

http://www.appleseedinfo.org/

I hadn't been to the Appleseed website for quite a while, until I posted above and went to review the link for accuracy.

They have a new deal - what a great thing to give as a gift to a new shooter!

http://www.appleseedinfo.org/ltr-marlin.html

They accessorize a Marlin 795 rifle so it's perfect for Appleseed training, and the deal includes the cost of an Appleseed training event. Wow - If I hadn't aleeady bought my kids .22 rifles and taken them to Appleseeds, I would be all over this.

One of the first accessories I bought for my CZ-452 was a single shot adapter for use instead of a magazine when shooting single shots. The insert is probably unnecessary except that it fills the void and helps guide the round into position. That's what I keep in the gun when not in use.

Spuds... if it looked like this.. Winchester Model of 1890... this one happens to be in .22 short and was a gallery gun.. my 12th birthday present... and started the whole thing

Yes Les,the fore-end looks right,but it didnt seem IIRC it was shooting shorts.But whatever it was,what a sweet sweet sweet action.Also said the ammo was rare as he let wife fire thru a box of it,LOL,they love ladies at the range!

Was that made in the 1900-1910 range,if so I think he said it was 1903,or 1909 vintage (EXCELLENT COND. BTW),I just wasnt paying enough attention to remember and he was naming off all kinds of antiques he had.Major lifetime collector of high end condition old guns,real old guy. In fact said he only started shooting them as he is going to die at his age so the heck with it,time he got to enjoy them too.

I would love to have one of those,you can really reload briskly,amazing quality firearm arent they?

Old 22 pumps,awesome IMO.Such QUALITY in maufacture as far as this novice knows,sure was a performer.

OK,did some looking,I'd say it was the Winchester 1906 .22 pump.

Pic I saw on web...and the vintage would be correct,and fore-end slide on tube is what I remember....

http://guncollectionsonline.com/winchester1906.htm

regarding combo-guns, like the savage 24C:

i loved the concept, but having owned a couple of them i wasn't impressed with either the quality or the utility. i tried having them improved with sling swivels, trigger jobs and custom sights (rear peep), yet even then they didn't satisfy me.

worse was my surprise when i intended to fire the rimfire but the shotgun fired instead (it appears i had simply bumped the selector onto the wrong setting but hadn't notice it the moment the game jumped up).

swiss army knives and maybe leatherman are the only items i can think of that actually preforms a number of different tasks well. i've found that firearms designed for a single purpose do that job far better.

ie: a person can always add a scope to the 10/22 if desired. but scoping a 24C is not only hard to accomplish, its not at all useful when shooting the birdshot barrel.

Spuds... if it was a round barrel a 1906, the 90's were octagonal... from the serial number range mine was produced in 1910...

Wiley... went through a pretty steep learning curve with the 10/22 (mine was built around 1995)... cantilevered scope, a half hour talk with David Tubb, some headspace and trigger work, double lugged, and a barrel tuner was a 4 year project, but ended pretty well

Bingley,

The shotgun barrel insert IS the barrel for the .22 (or other caliber you choose). They are rifled so the bullet spins up just like it would out of a pistol or rifle. Since it's traveling in a straight line (at least at that point) it exits the larger shotgun barrel unimpeded. I'd suggest getting one of the longer ones as you will impart greater velocity to the bullet with the longer barrel. The system achieves the same, or greater, velocity out of the insert barrel as it would out of a pistol.

One of the steps of shooting (Appleseed note here) is "Follow Through." This is when the trigger is momentarily held in the firing position prior to being allowed to travel forward and reset. I think you'd get the best accuracy with a good follow through with an insert. Additionally, the .22 insert is offset either on top or bottom so you'd need to shoot it a bit to see where it's zero'd.

Best of luck!

The Browning BL-22 is one of the best .22 rifles made. Built to last and very accurate. A bit pricey but totally worth it IMO.

Marlin XT-22 bolt action .22 is also excellent. Very affordable.

Marlin Model 60 is a great budget rifle. 2nd most popular semi-22 after the Ruger 10/22.

CZ also makes fantastic .22 rifles and shotguns.


All of these are tube fed so you don't have to worry about magazines. Good luck!

Actually, there are more Marlin 60's out there than 10/22's. A lot more. The 60 has been in production for many years longer than the 10/22. Being popular, and being available for many decades, equals high numbers in the hands of shooters. It could be that looking at a short snapshot in time today, a 10/22 is more likely to be sold than a 60 (i don't know if this is true or not), but over all time there are tons more 60's out there than 10/22's.

The Appleseed idea is a good one. The instructors in my area are quite serious about pedagogy, but I am guessing that there is always a variation in terms of the quality, flavor, etc. of each shoot.

Some newspapers make them out to look like a militia group. That's not true at all. They stick close to marksmanship and heritage, and they advocate civic participation -- not for any specific party. They're just against apathy. Now, you can say that's a kind of politics, and you'd probably be right. But that's a far cry from an overtly political organization. What I'm trying to say is that Canadians should be fine. You don't need to worry that you'd be out of place.

Marlin....solid reputation.

at one time, not anymore. since they were taken over by remington, marlin fans haven't been too happy with the new products. these poor quality items are often referred to as Remlins.

you might want to look for older models (usually stamped with a "JM" on the barrel).

if you doubt this, check out the threads at the marlin forums (www.marlinowners.com) or just google "marlin remington"

Even my old Marlin never could run more than two tubes before it started jamming, its probably 30 years old now and I haven't shot it in 25, but when I was a kid I had to clean it often.

Whats your guys thoghts on age for first shooting a shotgun? I have my little 20 gauge kept for the kids, my son is 7 now but hes small for his age so I'm thinking it may be a while yet. I'm wondering if maybe I should look into one of the .410 adapters for it to start with.

I would wait until 12 or so. Physical size is important, but even more so is mental maturity. Of course, when you hand any kid a firearm, you are making a critical statement about their capability and your opinion of his/her development. Everyone is a little bit different.

For a slightly different perspective: When I was stationed in the state of Maine a bzillion years ago, it was not uncommon for guys to use their .30-30 lever-action for everything. They were very proficient with them for squirrels, rabbits, and deer. Some may have "fished" with them, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Cowboy action loads
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101211161242AA10XYo

Here are some commercial Cowboy light loads that work well on small game.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/538205/...-nose-box-of-20

Loading your own of course can be a lot cheaper.

Lever action + Cowboy action = me getting to love out my Calamity Jane fantasy. LOL!

Agreed. Big part of why we're taking our time on this. We were at the archery range with our Cub Pack the other night, shooting recurve bows, and he pointed at the guy beside him while loading a couple of times. Not on purpose, but not thinking either.

He's not quite there yet.

I'm shooting air rifles with Troop next week, and he's invited. I'll bring him to at least watch, and we'll see how it goes.

500 dollar fantasy Henry Golden Boy

Yee haw!!

I have the Henry US Survival (AR7). It has a bad rep from the companies that produced it prior to Henry but its been way more reliable than my Marlin.

If your going for a single shot .22LR bolt rifle a Lee Enfield No8 was an excellent .22LR rilfe. Very Accurate but it might be a little difficult to get hold of one today.

http://rifleman.org.uk/Enfield_Rifle_No.8.html

Nice

I have to say, I think wood grain guns a are beautiful. Personally, I'm most drawn to single shot, bolt action guns, with lever action coming in a close second.

Wood like this?

People still rag on that rifle from before Henry took over production. Now that Henry are into their 2nd generation of the AR7, the complaints have been largely muted. Most of the complainers have never even seen the 2nd gen version because of their tunnel vision! A while ago I asked the company if they were going to produce a .17HMR version of the AR7. I got a reply back, from the president of the company no less, telling me that they looked at doing .17HMR and .22mag versions but decided not to. Probably didn't think they would sell enough in those calibers.

That burled wood stock is just awesome looking!

Unfortunalty its old bad rep I believe hurts sales, like you said many people won't even look at it. Others will say just buy the takedown 10/22 even though its a much larger heavier rifle so its not really in the same class.

gratuitous display... I may not be able to hit anything anymore, so style points become critical....

When I see those gorgeous wood grains, I understand gun collectors. :-)

Jacqui... they lure you in with rich polished hardwood, and deep bluing or bright stainless steel... then you end up with all of your game guns being non reflective, with black polymer stocks...

And a lot of reviews on it that arent flattering....growing pains apparently.

On the original topic, I just wanted to say that...if you are looking for a firearm for yourself and your son to shoot, it might be a good idea to look into firearms labeled as, youth size. Youth sized firearms have a shorter length of pull, which is basically the length of the stock.

When firearms are designed, they're typically designed with the average size man in mind. Women and children are of a smaller stature on average and therefore typically need a shorter length of pull to shoot a firearm comfortably and properly. Otherwise, shooting a firearm with too long of pull can be extremely uncomfortable and often quite unsafe.

This is one of the reasons why adjustable stocks have become so popular on modern firearms, as they can fit a wide range of shooters. Though, I don't know what the legalities of adjustable stocks are your location.

How about a Mexican Mauser in 7mm Mauser with a 13-inch pull and 16 1/8" barrel that is totally free floating? I call it my "pocket rifle". Tons of fun to shoot and not that bad on recoil.

Those are beautiful classic guns. Sorry, but nothing wrapped in black plastic even comes close!

Byrd_Huntr...as I get older, my gun games have changed.. the current one is 3 gun, and it really is tough on equipment...black plastic works... I've managed to break a VietNam era A1 stock for my AR already

pic of old fat guy on the Sniper Range at Ft Benning 3 Gun 2007...long range rifle and shotgun stage

i've found having the same sort of rifle allows me to focus on the situation instead of how each firearm works. handling becomes instintive. plus the rimfire version offers inexpensive practice to the centerfire versions.

here my set of lever action marlins, all with the same ashley peep sights, which can cover anything from squirrels to buffalo, in 22LR, 45 Colt and 45/70:

Nice trio of leverguns there wileycoyote!

I'm right behind you ... I have the .45colt and the .22LR levers, and the .45-70 will be added some day (my shooting buddy has his on the "bucket list" for transfer to me when he croaks). But I'd rather have my shooting buddy than the .45-70, so I'm willing to wait indefinitely. .45-70 is a bit much for plinking at the range anyway, which is what we do 99% of the time.

Nice Wiley.Have that in 30.30

Me too, and I agree that is a very nice set of rifles.

My Marlin 336 is my only 'high power' rifle. The area that I hunt deer in is slugs-only, and since I am primarily a byrd_huntr, I have a selection of shotguns. My other rifles are vintage Remington .22's. Here's the Remington Fieldmaster .22 pump.

And Les,

Your collection is great too. I'm not a competitive shooter, so I was only speaking of the aesthetics of woodgrain and blue. I know synthetic stocks provide several advantages. I'm old fashioned in the sense that I will give up a little in performance for the feel and look of wood.

Here is another interesting thought: I had the "Cartridges of the World, 6th Edition" for a million years; it eventually disintegrated. Near the end of book there was a question posed to Frank Barnes (gun guy extraordinaire). He was asked "If you had to choose only one caliber to use all over the world, what would it be?" His response was ". . . a 12-gauge shotgun". This is because of the wide variety loads that can be had or made for it.

Youth 20 gauge

Eugene, that is very nice. Is that an H&R or an NEF? Either way, it is nice. 20-gauge is a very manageable gauge for all.

I have seen those for around $100 at Walmart.

H&R from the 80's

My brother has one like it just sitting at my parents house, if I can ever get him to reply to an e-mail I've offered to buy it then I can refinish it (he's scratched it up pretty bad) and have one for each of my kids.
Will probably just paint it pink with sparkles for my daughter

I have a large collection of guns and have naturally tested them over a long period of time. At this point and, unless I'm going on a hunting trip, I carry one of two guns in the field.
1) 1892 Winchester carbine in .44-40 with peep sight. Reloaded with modern powers and jacketed cartridges you get 2000 fps with a 200 grain bullet.
That's more than enough to bring down a deer at 100 meters. For small game I carry shells using Speer plastic cups
I also carry a handful of .429 lead balls, a few primers and small can of Unique Powder with a powder measure. You would be amazed at how easy is to reload this cartridges with a light load. No tools are needed. This works great for hares, nutrias, etc. (No rabbits down here).

2) Rossi .308 single shot break-open gun. This is the gun that lives in the trunk. I carry a 10 rounds of soft point ammo for deer and carpincho and an adapter for .32 S&W and a box of .32s
That takes care of all the rest of animal edibles around here (which is vast).

This is what works for me, in my territory. Guns like clothes have to adjust to the area you are in. There is no universal gun for all purposes. The 12 gauge may be almost an all around gun whenever weight is not a concern. Try carrying two boxes of shells for a day and then tell me about it!

That is an important observation. The quote I gave did assume a non-survival situation. I have lost track of what Jac is looking for; survival or general (all) purpose. For survival, I would probably go with a single-shot .22. However, if I had to have only one gun, I may go with either a 12 or 20 gauge.

Survival shooting for food presents a problem. How much dead animal is enough? If you cannot process/preserve the meat from a deer-size animal, why harvest it? Thus, what is the need for medium or larger calibers in a survival situation? I have wrestled that question for quite a while.

My $.02

Faced with that problem, I would follow the strategy adopted by generations of carnivorous game hunters. Sit down and have a huge feast, concentrating on things like the upper intestine and organ meats which do not preserve well. Using either the sun or a slow fire, jerk the muscle meats, carry what you can, and cache the rest. There is lots of evidence for this in many buffalo jump sites on the Great Plains, practiced for thousands of years by hunters with nothing but large caliber sharp rocks and pointy sticks (and a lot of teamwork).

I also think the .22 is better for survival because of the weight issues of ammo. Although the 12 Gauge is versatile, that versatility comes with the cost of several different types of heavy ammo. The .22 can let you pack a lot of ammo for relatively small amount of weight.

Thus, your ammo will last longer and you will harvest more small game. I agree that taking a deer an not being able to use all of the food is a waste. The leftovers could also attract predators you would prefer to avoid.

That last situation is the best reason I can think of for a heavier weapon in a purely survival situation: defense against a predator. Here on the US east coast and in the Allegheny Mountains, large predators are much less of a risk then say on the West Coast or Alaska---our black bears are much less aggressive than brown bears, and despite persistent rumors of sightings (and one or two confirmed) there is not a resident or permanent population of big cats to worry about. So, for purely survival on the east coast, I would go with a good reliable .22 and lots of ammo.

My understanding of Jackie's original post was to ask about how to get started, recognizing a potential for possible later hunting/survival uses. IMO, a .22 (almost any .22 rifle) is a great way to start/learn at a very reasonable cost, provides a lot of fun shooting, and retains significant utility for later survival and small game hunting (check local laws). I think it is the best "starter" gun, and a .22 and a good supply of ammo should be included in all preps that include firearms.

While the .22lr is classic and pretty good, would the .22 Magnum (or even something like the .17HMR) be better? Just in terms of ease of harvesting game. For instance, a head shot to a deer with a .22lr may work, would the .22 Mag work better?

Yes. But the availability of different types of ammo is a major consideration now.

Who knows when the ammo manufacturers will have enough slack time to produce more .32acp? For instance, or .17HMR when existing supplies have been consumed.

while more powerful and having better bullet design options, if deer (or defense) is the goal, then 22mag is far from the ideal choice anyway.

22mag is far more expensive, harder to find, louder and does more damage on small game.

22LR is cheaper, will always be easier to find, allows for lots more practice for equal cost, and much much quieter (particularly with subsonics in a rifle).

but like any cartridge, they should both always be used within their capability, ie: small game.

But it won't be a concern forever. Panic buying creates ammo shortages every time a gun-grabber agenda comes up in Congress. The panic will pass. And experienced shooters know that you buy ammo when it is readily available and cheap, not during panic situations when you can't find it and have to pay outrageous prices if you do. There are two general types of folks that buy ammo during panic situations: (1) the naive group that thinks all ammo will disappear completely and they have to buy it now before it is no more, and (2) the speculators who buy in large quantities with the expectation that they will be able to make a profit ripping people off by selling it at even higher prices.

The first group is just ignorant, usually composed of people who have never shot a firearm before, and are clueless regarding these very predictable ammo/gun shortage cycles. The second group can take it in the shorts as far as I'm concerned, when they find they have a ton of ammo that they can't even sell for what they paid for it.

Experienced shooters just ignored the current shortage/panic_buying because they already owned all the ammo they need. They learned this during the previous panic buy, or the panic before that, or the one before that... Much to annoyance of gun-grabbers, there are very good reasons why experienced shooters recommend minimum ammo levels of 1000 rounds of each centerfire cartridge you have a gun for (and regularly shoot), plus 10,000 rounds of .22LR. You obviously don't buy all this at once, you build over time, we're talking many years, buying things when they are on sale, when you have spare cash, etc. And you ride on your inventory and never worry about having to buy during the panic times.

... .223 or .308 would be better yet. .22LR is a great round precisely because it owns the low end. Nudges higher in power like the very small upgrade to .22WMR will do a better job on the larger varmints but is still small for deer -- slightly better, but still underpowered; you will still need a good head shot.

I carry two rifles when I travel, a .22LR bolt gun and a .308 bolt gun. Both have very good iron sights and between the two cover just about all the game I would consider. I take a box of .308 hunting rounds and a brick of .22LR. I'll use the .22 for practice/plinking and the .308 usually stays in its sleeve for the trip.

Man, a .22lr and .308 would be a great dual caliber rifle. Probably better than a .22lr/410 for Canada (just in terms of big wildlife).

While the .22LR will always be king in terms of price for rimfire, there is a new kid on the block for alternative rimfire ammmo. That's the .17WSM, which is created by necking down a .27 caliber nail gun shell to fit the 20 gr. bullets of the .17HMR In terms of performance it clocks in at 3000fps at the muzzle and 400 ft-lbs of energy which blows away the HMR and .22mag. It counters the problem of low energy and high wind drift of the HMR. Ammo is apparently on price par with the HMR and magum rimfire ammos.

Quite literally, the .17WSM could replace the HMR, HM2 and magnum rimfires leaving only the .22LR as competition. And the only reason the .22LR would remain is because of the vast popularity and pricing.

.17WSM would seem to be an ideal rimfire alternative to .22 centerfire ammo at least for those don't reload and it is suitable for varmits like coyotes.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/winchester-ammunition-17-super-magnum-rimfire-17wsm-shot-show-2013/
http://suburbanbushwacker.blogspot.ca/2013/01/speed-thrills-17-wsm-for-recessionista.html
http://www.chuckhawks.com/17_super_mag_first_look.htm

A lot of what we consider 'political' organizations such as the NRA and NSSF have plenty of resources to help, for example:
http://www.outdoorroadmap.com/resources/target-shooting/how-choose-your-child%E2%80%99s-first-gun

That's a lot to say for a cartridge that is not even commercially available yet. At least I don't think so - has anyone ever seen this ammo in stock anywhere? Are there any firearmss available in this chambering yet? All's we know about it so far is marketing hype.

The cartridge was supposedly available in April. Savage is selling their B.MAG rifle with a MSRP of $349 so retail should be under $300. At least 2 other manufacturers have versions in the works.

I would be interested in this new cartridge. Not because I have any use for it. But simply because "I don't have this cartridge" yet. Many folks try to consolidate on only a few standard cartridges. I'm not like that. However, it seems premature to predict it will replace all the other rimfire cartridges out there with zero real world experience behind it. If it just supposedly came out last month, then only a small group of very lucky people would have ever seem it, let alone shot it. Even fewer would own it and be able to report on it.

I want to see a track record before I jump in on a new chambering. Too many new and improved cartidges have fallen short of expectations. Meanwhile, .22 LR is still king of the rimfires IMO.

there have been all kinds of orphans created in the firearms world with the latest and greatest caliber that never panned out.

The 22LR will be around for a long time, probably as long as there are firearms just because it is so versatile.

The various .17 rimfire cartridges have not really caught on much outside of a few niches, and the various recalls and warnings have just about killed them. My fear about this .17 cartridge is that the residual worry over other .17 rimfire cartridges would spill over to this one.

To me, the .22 magnum has a lot of potential and there are a number of companies making decent rifles in that caliber. In the right gun it has MOA accuracy and has proven to be reliable. I never quite understood why it never picked up a following for people hunting smaller critters that a .22LR is not appropriate for.

I am the opposite of many folks in that I usually don't seek out the highest velocity / smallest projectile cartridges.

I'm more likely to get excited about something like .22 Hornet or .300 Blackout or .45 Colt. Very slow compared to other cartridges using the same diameter projectile.

We are in agreement. .22 Mag is potentially accurate, fairly affordable, and also you don't normally have to deal with the supply/demand problems we're currently seeing with the .22LR. It's a good cartridge overall.

This ammo situation is starting to remind me of WW2 rationing here in the USA.

A used car would be purchased because it had good tires. The newly purchased car was immediately parked and the tires would be moved to the car that the owner actually drove.

Now people are thinking about buying a rifle or pistol in which ammo is still available.....

The ammo thing is a consideration for us too. It would suck finally buy a gun and not be able to get bullets for it. So many things to consider!

The ammo shortage will be over. We're going through a cycle. Just stock up when prices return to normal. When things are normal, .22LR ammo is really cheap, and you can easily buy thousands of rounds just by investing a few hundred dollars.

While you might luck out with unusual ammo. I've heard stories of people going out for hunting season and all of the 30-06 ammo being gone because its popular, but 8mm for his rifle luckily being in stock because he was the only one shooting it. However, in general, ammunition for common calibers will be commonly available. 22lr may not be sexy, but its common as dirt and almost as cheap. The same goes for 12 gauge, 30-06, 9mm parabellum, 45 ACP, 38 special, to a lesser extent 20 gauge, 357 and possibly 30-30. I'm sure there are others, but these I can think of off the top of my head. Other rounds may work better, perhaps much better, but these will work well enough, and you can almost always find them. When ammo isn't short, you can find them cheap and stock up. A few hundred rounds is enough, you don't need to prepare for a siege. If you shoot enough you need more, well you'll know better than I will and you can always learn as you go.

When it comes to teaching marksmanship fundamentals and hunting small game, 50 to 100 yards is plenty of range, and 22lr can easily handle it. I hunted rabbits at something less than 10 yards with a 22 pistol. I could have taken quail or squirrel just as easily.

This isn't to dissuade you from a less common caliber weapon, but its nice to be able to find ammo, magazines, repair parts and in the case of pistols holsters. If I ever bought another pistol it would be a Glock just because you can get anything you want for them anywhere that sells firearms.

Any weapon is good if you know how to use it. Practice and training are key. Enough ammunition to practice is a good thing.

Not sure if it's what you are looking for, but a company here in Canada sells SKS for $75 if you buy a case of ammo for $285, 1440 rounds so you are good for a while.

Personally I'm tempted to get a Marlin model 39a, lever action just have certain awesomeness to it, but from what I hear the newer ones aren't as high quality anymore.

Where is that? If they will ship to the USA, I'm in. That's pretty much a standard price for 7.62x39 (Russian) commercial ammo, $100/500 rounds. $75 for an SKS is a steal these days.

Can you provide any info on this company? Thanks!

I'll PM you the link, although I think you'll need some ATF forms signed to get guns (and maybe ammos) into US.

That's a Marstar Canada deal, but they have the following information on their page:

Attention U.S. Clients: Due to a U.S Government imposed embargo (import ban), we CANNOT ship Chinese made firearms to the United Stated. Please contact the A.T.F. for more information.

I think this is a Canadian only deal, unfortunately. Of course, the SKS has been reduced to a 5 round capacity too.

aw, for the good old days when surplus ammo was readily available for 2 or 3 cents a round and sks rifles could be had for $50.

it was not that long ago that 30/06 could be had by the crate for 5 cents a round.

I knew a guy who bought several skid loads of surplus ammo maybe ten years ago in various rifle and handgun calibers. the shipping cost him about the same as the ammo.

at 65 you don't really know how much longer you will be able to play.... I typically shoot two USPSA pistol matches (100-120 rounds each) and two 3 gun matches (60 pistol,60 rifle,50 shotgun)a month... I hope Precision Delta, my 9mm bullet supplier comes through as promised at 16 weeks till delivery...I've quit shooting one pistol match till they get here...