Hi Folks

I'm looking for some input here on how Americans behave during major evacuations of large cities. I've been doing some SHTF planning for my family - this includes working out some places where we could camp or stay in a motel for a few weeks if our huge city (So California) was evacuated. However, I realized that my thinking probably has major errors because I've never been thru a major evacuation of an American city. I'd like to hear some stories, especially from folks that been evacuated from places like Florida, Texas or other areas - e.g. due to major hurricanes.

1. How far do people have to travel to get to motels that still have vacancies? If a large city pours out en masse - how far do these people spread out?

2. What kinds of unexpected problems happen along evacuation routes ... like gas stations being out-of-gas, drivers doing crazy stuff, lines of traffic stalled for hours etc ?

3. Are there any items that are helpful to throw in your car during a mass evacuation that might not be obvious?

thanks,
Pete2

This is something which needs to be worked out with family and friends. We have a fledgling social network going and some of us are spread out so there are places even outside the city where we could bug out. Boarding accommodations will be tight.

My roommate will be getting sixty acres of land once the legal headaches are dealt with. I may have to take Camping 101.

Jeanette Isabelle

Pete,I think camping is a good option.

Most of us know and are equipped for that,keep those gas tanks on vehicles topped up always as much as possible and gas shouldnt be an issue.

from a Floridian's viewpoint.... "run from the water, and hide from the wind" has been the state's policy for the last couple of seasons... flee from coastal tide surge if you are vulnerable, and plan your routes away from freshwater rivers as they typically are fed by extremely large run off areas, are relatively narrow, and easily expand over the banks with the increase in runoff....as population centers are clustered around the water, this often blocks major roadways... other than the St Johns, they typically run east and west to the coasts...where I live, US highway 19 parallels the coast, and everything to the west will be under water from coastal flooding... depending on the proposed track of the storm, most experienced Floridians have a plan devised according to the Saffir Simpson scale for storms... I plan on riding out up to a Cat 3 (my old house has been 125mph+)... as far a evacuation, most try to seek refuge with friends or relatives with newer homes constructed after Hurricane Andrew and the resulting change in the building codes requiring hurricane clips on roof trusses, and reinforced double garage doors... (during Andrew (Cat5 with gusts over 170mph) when the double wide garage doors of attached garages gave way, the roof of the home typically followed....those that move away from the coast probably 20 to 50 miles inland... of course during the 04/05 season, Polk county in the middle of the state had all three run right over the top of it in a couple month's time... we have very good Doppler radar coverage, and experience track forecasts... there are a lot of variables...if you live in the Keys, your options are quite different than mine... regards

Per my hurricane experiences:

Either leave the city early and get out ahead of the herd, or wait 12-24 hrs for the herd to pass and then get on the road. I prefer to leave by highway for at least the first hundred miles and then cross an interstate to see if it's flowing or if it's a parking lot.

You'll want to keep your gas tanks topped off prior to an evacuation being called.

It can be 300-500 miles before a hotel can be found, depending on the size of population that's been ordered.

Camper owners fare best because the daily camping rate is miniscule compared to a hotel daily or weekly rate. Pets are usually not a problem with campsites. (BTW: LaQuinta is a pet friendly hotel chain). Food costs are much cheaper with a camper versus dining out somewhere for every meal.

Plan on several different places to evacuate to depending on the type of threat, it's forecast direction of travel (hurricanes, tornado's), or based on wind direction (nuke accident, wild fires, hazMat incident), and always consider the proximity of extended family and good friends in relation to proposed evacuation locations.

Here's one story

http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/cities/m...e-of-cities/881

I have a question - these evacuations discussed above all deal with hurricanes or major hurricane-like storms (Sandy). Those are all but unknown in Los Angeles - there is a record of one storm reaching the LA area in 1924 or so, but it was a puny little thing.

In Southern California, the disasters of choice are wildfires and earthquakes. I suspect evacuation in the aftermath of a really major earthquake (8.0 or so) would be very difficult with broken freeways, landslides etc. My general strategy is to shelter in place, essentially camping out where the backyard used to be. Obviously evacuation of an urban the size of LA will be a huge undertaking, if indeed it would be the best strategy.

The Southern California area has a long record of wildfire prompted evacuations. The problems with them are fairly trivial.

Wildman - thanks. a lot of good tips there.

Pete2

hikermor and I are in agreement, but I need to toss in bridges. Being stuck with no way back after a major earthquake is the reason my truck is always prepared for an overnight or four.

As for wildfires, where I'm located they are either small and easily contained, or they start well to the east and are blown by Santa Ana winds, and may take a week to become a direct threat. With plenty of warning I pack the truck for evacuation and then wait and wait and wait...

As for how far, in the case of an earthquake I hope to have enough water to hold out until utilities are restored -- not going anywhere. Then again, if it's really big (8.0+) utilities could take a while. In this case I could find myself leaving SOCAL and visiting friends/family in PNW.

For wildfires you just need to get out of the path if you need to get out at all. In this case my first stop would be get a room nearby work. If my house becomes a casualty, I'm visiting friends/family in the PNW. I've never had to evacuate.

You are absolutely right about bridges. I keep thinking about the unfortunate motorcycle patrolman who, speeding to his duty station right after the 1994 Northridge quake, found out that a major overpass had crumpled - the hard way.

Google Hurricane Rita evacuation of Houston and experience the nightmare...

It was a disaster of epic proportions.
-Blast

Blast ... yes I do need to go back and read thru those old reports about the Houston evacuation. I seem to recall that was a nightmare for a lot of people.

Hikermor - you are right that the biggest disaster in So. Cal would be an earthquake. Hence there would be no advance warning. And as you say - a LOT of the freeway overpasses would come down. So realistically, we would be lucky here if we had one major freeway still intact that could be used for evacuation. Imagine the time it would take to get several million people out of the city using just one freeway. Complicating things - I'm not sure anybody here has a plan to broadcast emergency messages telling residents which roads are still open after a big quake (so there would be a lot of confusion). And I'm sure that authorities would want to use the surviving freeway to be able to bring emergency supplies INTO the city. So it's just a mess to think about. I doubt they could get most people out in two weeks. But it sure would simplify the relief operations if they could get as many residents out as possible.

I was actually thinking about other kinds of disasters ... possibly an evacuation due to a toxic chemical release - or even an incident involving chem/bio weapons (hopefully those crazies in N. Korea don't do something like that).

But still, if a lot of people pour out of a major city, it seems like campgrounds and motels would be occupied for hundreds of miles in all directions. Hence my own evacuation location needs to be outside that radius. And I should count on carrying enough gasoline for quite a long distance. Which tells me I better get a roof rack on my vehicle.

cheers,
Pete2

Not too likely I'd evac from the PNW because we just don't have the type of crisies I'd evaucate from. But I keep a set of AAA maps and driver's guides for the roads between Washington and Minnesota to the East, and to Arizona to the South in my trunk. Knowing all the roads and the alternative routes might be important, and the AAA guides have a comprehensive lists of all the hotels, campgrounds, gas stations etc etc etc en route. All free to AAA members.

This was before I bought a Garmin GPS or had a smart phone with built in GPS, maps and ability to Bing all the roadside attractions at my thumbs, but suppose those were offline, I'd at least want the paper guides to navigate from after I get past the Cascades. Besides, AAA is a smidge more comprehensive and direct than any online resources, which tend to reward thems that pays them to be listed.

This is not tested but I had an Emergency Manager type mention that driving cross-country in Canada seemed to have better resources in the event we evacuated from the PNW. Provided you can pass across the border, you have far fewer drivers stressing the gasoline supply across the provinces than you might in the States (assuming BC isn't evacuated like our region is). So going North for 2 hours before proceeding East and then heading South to Minnesota and my relatives is a possibility.

FWIW my Toyota Prius has been quite handy in several real world occasions, where the traffic is gridlocked for hours, and someof my fellow drivers are running out of gas idling their engines. The Prius only puts on the gas engine to top off the hybrid battery a bit - you can move 4 miles and everyone but you runs out of gas. Yet you're still stuck either way, because not all the dunderheads have the sense to push their gasless hulks off to the side of the road.

Pete,your car should do 3-400 miles,that should get us Californios out of disaster area.If road conditions allow.

Just stayed at a Red Roof Inn and they are pet friendly. Their website states there's no add'l deposit or fee for pets.

Pete, if these are you main concerns, then they are fairly contained events, more like evacuating from a wildfire, rather than a huge mass migration for an approaching hurricane.

I'm not sure how a chemical attack would likely play out, but running from a toxic industrial accident seems fairly hit and miss IMHO. Unless you're quite close to the source and would likely die whether you're inside or outside, sheltering in place is likely sufficient until the main threat has subsided. Since winds can shift quickly, getting stuck on the road and caught up in a concentrated plume could be far worse than hunkering down.

A bio attack would probably result in a locked down quarantine zone. If you're not inside the hot zone, it's probably safe enough to stay where you are, unless you're downwind of certain bio agents.

But unless you already live in a sensitive area with military assets, like chembio-specific detection equipment, it could take a while before anyone knows that a chembio attack is responsible for some situation. The "fog of war" is likely to prevail during any time window that would allow you to flee before authorities figure out what is happening and probably lock things down.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

I can relate an actual "chemical spill" that occurred in SoCal - I don't recall the precise date, but it was sometime in the late 1980s. We were unloading people at Anacapa Island when the boat captain gave five blasts on the horn and announced on the PA that everyone on the island was to get back on the boat immediately. A rocket on the launch pad at Vandeenberg (Pt Conception 50 miles or so to the west) had blown up on the launch pad, releasing a devil's brew of chemicals into the atmosphere. The park islands were downwind of the launch pad, and the word went out - everybody off.

The boat captain got on the horn, and only half jokingly inquired as to which direction should we head - further out to sea, or return to the mainland to die with everyone else. There was definitely some confusion and "fog of war" in the air along with the nasty rocket propellants. We had people on San Miguel Island, much closer to Vandenberg, and getting them off was a significant problem. They were enveloped by the chemical cloud and minimized it by retreating to the ranger station and sealing the windows and doors. We immediately sent a plane and got them off, although they still had to hike about half a mile to the airstrip. Medical treatment and monitoring was necessary, but everyone recovered.

With strong prevailing winds (think Santa Anas) a considerable distance and large populations could be involved, especially if you are dealing with highly toxic substances. And the circumstances will not be immediately clear. Anacapa was essentially unaffected, we learned later.

Living next to Vandenberg AFB can be exciting. A few years later, a rocket launched from Vandenberg blew up, dropping rocket parts on both San Miguel and Santa Rosa Islands. Good thing we had hard hats readily available.....

During an emergency I would cut that estimated distance in half. And many people would run out of gas, food, diapers, water. Unless I have no other option, I'm staying put. Can you imagine being stuck on the 405, the 10, or the 5 in the middle of summer? **shudders**

I live in Washington, D.C. -- smack in the middle of the Beltway -- and was here on 9/11/01. On that day, after the Pentagon was hit, a lot of my friends gave up on cars and walked home -- for miles -- to Virginia and Maryland. Since then this area has had a couple more experiences with evacuations and I've given a lot of thought to my own options in evacuating in an emergency.

I've concluded that it is fantasy to think I could get any appreciable distance without getting stuck for many hours. Hotels, forget it. I'd be either staying at a friend's or camping - fortunately I have a vehicle suited to sleeping inside.

So if the crisis is something involving several days warning, such as a hurricane, I'll err on the side of evacuating early. Anything posing a choice between sheltering in and hitting the road would likely have me staying home and perhaps leaving when the worst of the traffic crush is over.

Meanwhile, I keep my fuel tank topped off and the car is well equipped at all times. Never know where you'll be when something happens....


http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2011-08-24/local/35270649_1_web-site-information-earthquake

Earthquake illustrates colossal challenge of evacuating Washington, D.C.

By Ashley Halsey III and Ed O’Keefe,August 24, 2011

"...it is impossible for everyone to leave town in a hurry.

“Not only can it not be done, we should not try it,” said Ron Kirby, transportation planning coordinator for the Metropolitan Washington Council of Governments.

“You can just look at the evacuations that are taking place for the hurricane that’s approaching to see that in most cases they take several days,” said Montgomery County Council member Phil Andrews, who chairs the Emergency Preparedness Council, a regional committee under the Council of Governments.


http://www.homelandsecuritynewswire.com/dc-continues-struggle-orderly-evacuations

D.C. continues to struggle with orderly evacuations

Published 30 August 2011

Even during normal traffic conditions the city’s streets are clogged. The city’s nineteen evacuation routes are routinely jammed during rush hour due to the large number of employees commuting in and out of the city. D.C.’s population roughly triples from 600,000 to 1.8 million each workday resulting in severe strains on the city’s transportation infrastructure.

Dagny and others up thread have hit on some key points. Some things to think about:

What kind of emergencies am I most likely to face? Hurricane? Flood? Earthquake? Wildfire? Chemical spill? What others are perhaps less likely, but still possible?

For each of these possibilities, is sheltering in place a good option? For example in an area subject to severe flooding, evacuation might be the only realistic option. In other locations and situations, if you have made suitible preps, sheltering in place might be a better plan.

How much warning are you likely to have? For hurricanes you are likely to have a lot of warning. If getting out of Dodge seems the best choice, it's probably best to make that decision early to avoid the linear parking lot that will occur on freeways. Earthquakes just happen, with no real warning. And earthquake damage may be widespread, making evacuation difficult or impossible. In that case, it might be better to stay put.

If I decide to evacuate, how difficult might that be? The experience in Houston for Rita was instructive. What alternative routes are available? How likeley are they to be blocked by damage? If I try to evacuate but get stuck half way, am I in worse shape than had I stayed put?

What community resources are likely to be available? Some communities are much better prepared than others. In another thread, Lono talked about Red Cross shelters. Part of good planning would be to find out what is likely to be available (or not) in your area. If you live out in the country, there might be very few people around to help you. If you live in a big city, the authorities might be overwhelmed in a major emergency. Maybe you should get involved with CERT or other groups to make your community stronger?

Above all realize that things probably won't happen exactly as you expect. Plan for a variety of options. Don't get locked into only one plan. Being flexible is a good survival trait, in my opinion.

Actually - I came up with a SOLUTION to the freeway problem in Los Angeles during a major evacuation.

SHERIFF BLAST.

Yep - he's my answer :-)
I figure we can fly Blast over to So California on a Cessna. He can open the door and skydive into the city. Then we'll take him to a big crate loaded with Tasers and RPG's. Then just tell Blast to KEEP THOSE FREEWAYS MOVING - no matter what.

This idea works for me.
I'm seeing this as a positive :-)

Pete2

These are things to expect, not unexpected.


Volcano? Earthquake? Tsunami? Large chemical spill from a train derailment into a stream that feeds into the lake serving as the municipal water supply?

Volcano isn't laughable. St. Helens was rumbling for many weeks but public evacuation orders only preceded the main event by two weeks. It *should* be an orderly evac, but...

Evacuations are hazardous and unpredictable. With a hurricane there's a risk you're still on the road in a car when the fun starts. With an Earthquake I'd try to put off evacuating for days at least, to give authorities a chance to organize the evacuation routes.

After hurricane Ike there were refugees at least 200 miles inland. Any large-scale evac (hundreds of thousands and up) is probably going to saturate every hotel until you get to New Mexico at least.

Don't forget that Cash is King and credit/debit/ATM cards often useless.

The 1980 Mt. Saint Helens eruption is an intersting case study in the problems officials have in calling for an evacuation. The problem wasn't so much that the warning was too late. Rather the problem was that people didn't believe it.

In 1980, there were strong indications that a major eruption of St Helens was imminent, and the situation was very dangerous. The USGS convinced the state, counties, and USFS to close the area around the mountain. The problem was that a lot of people had cabins in the area, and there was a lodge and other businesses in the area. When after some time there was no eruption, the public pressure to re-open the area became intense. People were calling the USGS all sorts of nasty things, and demanding that the closure of the area end. Lots of people were ignoring the closure and sneaking into the area.

The authorities finally gave in to that pressure, and opened the area for one weekend, to allow people to go to their cabins and retrieve their belongings. That was the weekend the mountain erupted, and 57 people died. The eruption was in fact much worse than even the USGS expected. The blast flattened forests for miles, mud flows destroyed bridges and partially blocked the shipping channel in the Columbia River, and ash clouds covered a huge area downwind.

A very good read about St. Helens is the book "Volcano Cowboys: The Rocky Evolution of a Dangerous Science" by Dick Thompson. He describes in great detail the science behind the warnings, and also the problems the USGS had in getting the public to take the whole thing seriously.

I grew up in the PNW, and climbed Mt. Saint Helens several times in the years before the eruption. By the time of the eruption I was living in Denver. We actually got a tiny but visible bit of dust even there from the eruption. If you are ever in the area, it is well worth it to drive up there and visit the Johnston Ridge Visitors Center (named after a USGS geologist who died in the eruption). It still boggles my mind to look up there and realize that most of the peak I climbed is....gone.

So some takeaways so far ...

1. It's essential to have an emergency stash of cash and an emergency stock of gasoline (that is transportable - but not inside the vehicle). A vehicle roof rack is a very good idea. Likewise, it's essential to keep your gas tank filled, your spare tire checked and in good working order, and jack/tools packed and ready to go.

2. There is no guarantee of a credible early warning. So you either need to leave earlier than everyone else, or wait it out.

3. There is no point in "fighting it out" on the freeways with hundreds of thousands of other desperate drivers. Go early or leave late.

4. Figure on motels and campgrounds being occupied for at least 300-400 miles out of the city.

5. Have several OPTIONS on where your emergency destination will be, some close and some much further away.

Pete2

Pete,

By way of practice, I highly recommend car camping with whoever you would be evacuating with (wife, children, pets?). Or without them if they aren't eager.

You'll learn what you need to have in the car to survive comfortably for some number of days. You can practice different routes out of town.

Leaving home on a Friday of a holiday weekend and imagining that times a factor of 10 would be some approximation of what you'd have to look forward to in a mass evacuation.

Practice makes perfect. I've been car camping in this region for twenty years so have the gear (have camped in overnight temps in the teens), know what fits in my vehicle, know the campgrounds and routes to get to them.

By the way, do you keep your vehicle in a garage? Occurs to me that in earthquake country it could be wise to keep the evac vehicle outside of the garage.

Also, if I were evacuating among the things that would be going with me are mountain bikes on my hitch rack and a bike trailer and Burley Travoy on the roof (Yakima Loadwarrior).

Burley Travoy - I got this for grocery shopping (works as a bike trailer or hand truck) and it is so light and compact that it is now part of my road trip gear.

http://www.burley.com/home/bur/page_416/travoy.html


.

Point I was going to make,you need to stay off the main roads and take the smaller less traveled less known routes.

Down in Disneyland,Anaheim Ca,the main roads can get clogged pretty easily.The locals know how to cut through neighborhoods and even with slower speeds and stop signs you get where you are going during rush periods much faster.

So knowledge of less traveled routes to where you need/imagine you might go should be in your knowledge base.

The thread back awhile about riots,we did some dry runs to get out of town where we work,in an emergency if I can get past a couple potential bottlenecks we would be far ahead of the herd.

Having ability to drive over curbs and up dirt embankments is also a very nice thing.

Once I went 4x4,cant believe I spent 45 years not ever having been exposed to it,would never go back,no way,no how.Should have started when I was 18 I now feel in hindsight.

Just doesnt make sense to me anymore not too,IMO,YMMV.

One of our better preps for sure,and its always with us.The 4x4 broken record continues,but I truly believe it so its a mantra from me.

I went to a 2wd truck for many reasons other do, never needed 4x4, got along fine with a locking rear end and chains. But then ran across one occasion where I did need it, my 2wdmade it just as well as my parents small 4x4 (geo tracker) but it wasn't a fun experience. 4x4 is just like any other prep gear, you buy it just in case but hope to never need it.

Practice as others said.

It is 250 miles from where we live to where we have out farm land and if we evac'ed that's where we could go. You need to drive to and from often, budget for a trip ever month or two. Make a stop at the local stores, people will start to recognize you. You need to start taking detours every now and then. We'll look for places off the main highway and take an exit somewhere before and after to detour and make a stop. This helps you get familiar with alternate routes.

The average car gets 300-400 miles on a tank, stop and go traffic will cut that down as will pulling trailers or strapping items to the roof, taking detours, backtracking, etc. You need to take that into account. If your evac is also 300-400 miles then you have to keep a full tank or enough extra to top it off before you leave and enough safely carried to extend that range.

CB radio or scanner helps to gather intel along the route, traffic jams, accidents, etc.

good suggestion spuds. should work for me - I have a Jeep.
I'll start looking at possibilities.

Pete2

Spuds,

Not sure what "broken record" you are refering to? I have not heard anyone suggest that it isn't useful having a 4X4. What has been suggested is that even without 4X4, experience and skill can get you through a lot. And that without experience and skill, 4X4 can sucker you deeper into a bad situation.

I am not exactly a newbie when it comes to using 4X4. You will be no doubt be amazed to learn that in Alaska it actually does snow now and then. In our family we drive one AWD car and one 4X4 SUV. Over many years I've driven a lot of different rigs, in a lot of different conditions. Deep snow, ice, mud, sand, rocks, you name it. I've seen people use them 4X4 well. And I've seen people without 4X4 get some amazing places. And I've sure seen a lot of people who got into serious trouble because they thought with their 4X4 their was no way they could get stuck. And,though I hate to admit it, I've gotten stuck myself once or twice, usually when I was being dumb.

"In Alaska we have four distinct seasons. There is early winter, mid winter, late winter, and next winter. What you folks down south call 'summer' is just the transition from late winter to next winter!"

Aksar,referring to me ,the 4x4 over and over posts by me,Im the broken record.

Im not discounting 4x4 makes folks over confident,thats where the experience factor plays. Just because its 4x4,street tires wont cut it yet folks see those stupid commercials and think it does,Then you have the 4x4's that cant move and block the roads.

We are very steep here on the roads and just shake our heads at the uninformed 4x4 owners that havent a clue what they are doing,or what they DONT have . Monster street 4x4 trucks,add hard mud tires (STAY HOME!)....Escalades in snow banks with low profile street tires(STAY HOME!)I hear ya totally on what you are saying.

You must equip your 4x4 with the equipment that will actually move you in the environment you are tackling.BFG all terrain tires can tackle most situations very well.Freeway,dirt,snow and rain,its a good thing,they are extremely popular up here.

Pete,you would LOVE these on your Jeep,my Jeep has em.And quiet soft ride too!And high mileage too especially on our light Jeeps,They will take you through any road condition at all that California offers.
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Type of Tire: All season tiresAll season tires
with snowflake symbolMeets the severe snow service requirements of the Rubber Manufacturers Association (RMA) and the Rubber Association of Canada (RAC) and is having the mountain/snowflake symbol.
Sidewall: RWL (White Letters - Raised White Letters)
Manufacturer
part number (sku): 49774
Manufacturer Warrranty Brochure: pdf PDF Download
Speed index: Q: this tire is approved for speeds up to 160 km/h !!
Test results Profile All-Terrain T/A KO:
+++0- Tire Reviews by Tirestest.com

An experience I had with those tires.I have the Dodge truck Bud has,mine a couple years newer,in fact he is reason I bought the truck,he talked me into it.Glad I listened,smart man he is.

Anyhow,went up North to help him fix his backhoe,out in a field.It rained the entire time.

The field had some kinda grass,when you walked on it water would raise like 1/4 inch or so around your boots. He said no way could my truck go there.So I walked it,didnt seem too bad.Pulled front tires off the dirt road and rested front of truck,didnt sink in much,so i drove on out,he was convinced no way I could do that. It just growled right on out there,no drama at all.4-HIGH

Then I needed to back around to get nose of truck to hoe so we could use my battery to jump Hoe. I backed into an area with standing water and no ground cover,just mud.Sunk in a bit more like almost 3/4 to rim but again pulled right around and back into the ground covered area,no drama at all.

By then he was just astounded.He drives more standard tread tires and says no way could he get his truck out there,in Better conditions than we went out.

Dang good tires!

And I dont profess to be Joe Expert 4 wheeler,Im just a schmuck and admit it.

The only negative about those tires is they affected my fuel economy, My Chevy truck MPG dropped down to that of the Toyota truck.
My parents were up this weekend and my father was looking over my tires, he knows when I get new ones I keep the old for him to use on the farm. I put them on at 30k and now have 115k on my truck and they still have plenty of tread left so it may still be anther year or two before he gets them.
But I can drive up snow covered mountains in WV in 2wd watching other 4x4 and AWD vehicles spinning and slipping.

My fuel economy of my large Jeep is already shot to pieces. When I go to replace tires, I'll look into the ones recommended by Spuds.

Spuds - I'm going to start looking at route alternates out of the L.A. Basin where a 4x4 might actually be an advantage. That could be a really useful thin to know. If you've got any ideas, please do send a PM.

cheers,
Pete2

I have the same ones BFG AT's.

The other advantage is they are 6-8 ply depending on which model, I was always poking holes in the 2 ply P rated tires that my truck came with. I went to D rated and don't even have to add air when I load on the camper.

One idea are the powerline roads.

15 from Cajon north has a lot of parallel routes in the dirt with roads fine for 4x4,and staying on road 2 wheel is fine.

395 and 4x4 you can skirt alongside a long ways as the side dirt is well packed,I havent done that but I was looking last time we went to Kramer Junction then west on our trips to the coast.

The high desert is loaded with easy Jeep roads from offroaders that have played for years within site of 15,a mile or so in,more so on east side that Im aware of,so if you got stuck on 15 North its possible to drive right off in spots to side roads or past blockages on freeway.Cajon to Barstow,....we have property north of Victorville and the dirt roads and powerline road IS the access.Watch that loose sand though,stick to the rockier brown red colored stuff its well packed.There is also side roads in Devore area north on both sides.

For camp grounds look at city,county and state parks,we have a bunch of em and bugging out to a place from wilderness to powered sites works real well,we spent 2 weeks bugged out at Mohave Narrows,great place it was,power water and toilets and no pet issues.
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I cant speak on tire mileage ( but I dont discount it,being 'sticky' tires),I know (well Heard anyhow) the gasoline and diesel doesnt have the power they had a few years back.Wonder if thats a lot of what we see on that? In any event Im willing to pay that premium.Ive noticed since diesel change Ive lost about 1.5 MPG? Is that it or other things Ive done,maybe both? Dont know,any experts on fuel,or well read novices to comment?

spuds - thanks. very good suggestion.
i'll start checking it.

Pete2

Hey spuds - follow up. I've been looking at the dirt roads over the mtn's near L.A. Have you ever driven up any of the "Fire Roads" over the hills? Are these open? Some of these could offer some useful alternatives, but not sure the entrances are accessible.

Pete2

Go figure! One route by me was a pretty good road 2 wheelers easy,for whatever reason they came and put boulders across the entrance since 'they werent going to pay for upkeep' anymore. Now thats a loss.

Then my neighbor,the trail guy,was going to take us on some tours with us following him that were of the easier kind and danged if they didnt just move before he had the chance.Easy enough for his old CJ-3 but he and son would also wench his along where the Jeep Rubicons travel,he knew his stuff.

You are so right,fire roads are a good idea.

I must look into that,there are maps available I hear too.

Thanks for the reminder.