Equipped To Survive Equipped To Survive® Presents
The Survival Forum
Where do you want to go on ETS?

Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
#255507 - 01/15/13 11:59 AM Another tragedy
airballrad Offline
Gear Junkie
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 248
Loc: Gulf Coast Florida, USA
An unplanned night out coupled with bad weather turns deadly for a father and his two young sons on a hike.

Anniversary gift turns into fatal hike for father, two sons from Millstadt



Edited by airballrad (01/15/13 12:11 PM)

Top
#255508 - 01/15/13 12:33 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
gonewiththewind Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1517
So easily prevented, multiple times and in multiple ways. Over confidence cost the family dearly.

Top
#255511 - 01/15/13 12:50 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
spuds Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/24/12
Posts: 822
Loc: SoCal Mtns
How sad,beautiful family.Prayers sent.

Top
#255516 - 01/15/13 01:27 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
This is a really unfortunate example of the insidious nature of hypothermia. Note that the father had a chance at a ride to safety and thought he would be fine without it....
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

Top
#255518 - 01/15/13 01:39 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
celler Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/25/03
Posts: 410
Loc: Jupiter, FL
Very sad. The article said he had a flashlight and a cell phone but the batteries depleted on both. This is why my PLB goes with me on EVERY hike, no matter how "easy" or "short".

Top
#255526 - 01/15/13 05:00 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
Glock-A-Roo Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 1076
Wow what a horrible story. Thank you for posting it, great wakeup call.

It brings to mind Peter Kummerfeldt's advice:

"Never say “I am just……” Saying “I am just going to….” (You fill in the blank) is a denial of the possibility that anything will go wrong and a denial of the need to carry an emergency kit or protective clothing with you. After all “what could possibility go wrong?” A lot can go wrong, it can go wrong quickly and you can die!"

Top
#255527 - 01/15/13 05:03 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
ILBob Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 776
Loc: Northern IL
It is hard to understand an "experienced" hiker going on an all day hike with virtually nothing in the way of gear to deal with the normal things that happen when you are out hiking especially this time of the year.

Just some emergency ponchos might have kept them dry enough to survive.

I have often said I am only really afraid of three things out in the woods, - getting wet, getting lost, and the dark.

I carry a poncho of some sort and a space blanket in case it rains on me, multiple compasses and a map to help me get unlost, and at least two flashlights.
_________________________
Warning - I am not an expert on anything having to do with this forum, but that won't stop me from saying what I think. smile

Bob

Top
#255530 - 01/15/13 05:44 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
dougwalkabout Offline
Crazy Canuck
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 3219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Geez, that is so sad. What a waste. My condolences to the family. frown

I know how a trail can draw you forward. A five-minute reconnoiter tempts you to leave your gear in the car or cabin, and then it turns into a multi-hour walk. And if the weather turns ...

Top
#255531 - 01/15/13 05:51 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: ILBob]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2322
Loc: Colorado
Wow. I guess they didn't seek shelter or build a fire until it was already too late. But building a fire could have been quite tough in the downpour that was described. And if they didn't have anything significant to protect them from the rain and cold...

I try to go prepared, but I could see myself in a similar situation potentially. 60 degrees in the morning - you usually expect it to warm up as the day goes on. I always check the weather forecast. I always carry additional gear for warmth, how much of that I carry depends on the season, the forecast, etc. But going from 60 degrees to 20 (in pouring rain) is quite a change. But I guess it IS winter now, and these types of temperature swings aren't really all that rare.

I will be more vigilent in making sure I am prepared on future hikes. Usually you read stories of tragedy like this and you can point out all the obvious, blatant mistakes that were made. But in this case I can see mistakes were made, but I don't judge them as over-the-top felony-level stupidity. They could happen to many of us here, despite how well prepared we proclaim to be. I guess the biggest mistake was not to check on the weather forecast (but we don't know that he didn't do that - it wasn't mentioned).

I will now make sure to remind my kids (grown up now) they always be carrying at least a HeatSheets for every hike, even if it's a warm sunny day and it's only planned to be a two hour stroll. Getting wet can just kill you.

Top
#255533 - 01/15/13 06:02 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: ILBob]
airballrad Offline
Gear Junkie
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 248
Loc: Gulf Coast Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: ILBob
It is hard to understand an "experienced" hiker going on an all day hike with virtually nothing in the way of gear to deal with the normal things that happen when you are out hiking especially this time of the year.

"Experienced" is subjective. Maybe he took lots of walks in the woods during the day in warm weather. Only takes a couple mistakes for things to go south, and people get complacent when things usually go as planned.

Top
#255534 - 01/15/13 06:42 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
Glock-A-Roo Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 1076
It was the widow who described her husband as 'experienced'. I take that with a big grain of salt. It's like the guys who say "I've been shooting guns all my life" but have never done any formal training and actually suck at shooting, especially if put on the timer. I'm sure their wives consider them 'experienced shooters'.

Top
#255536 - 01/15/13 07:07 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
unimogbert Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 882
Loc: Colorado
IlBob - you might add a secondary thing to fear to your excellent and simple list:

A nice weather forecast that's wrong.

Trusting a weather forecast is sometimes necessary but don't bet your life on it if you can help it.

Top
#255537 - 01/15/13 07:12 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: Glock-A-Roo]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2322
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Glock-A-Roo
and actually suck at shooting, especially if put on the timer

I would tend to call someone "experienced" if they can hit their target every time firing at once-per-second while maintaining safe firing discipline. But not someone who misses their target many times at a higher rate of speed, flailing around in an unsafe manner, but still managing to beat some arbitrary timer in the process. So the definition of "experienced" does vary, basically, depending on the experience of the person defining "experienced".

Anyway, my point is, it is difficult to say exactly what "experienced" means, no matter what the situation being described is. Does participating on ETS make us experienced? Does carrying a PSK make us experienced? It's kind of hard to say. So we just have to take the news report on face value. Not trusting it totally, but not completely disregarding it either.

Top
#255539 - 01/15/13 07:41 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: haertig]
Glock-A-Roo Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 1076
Originally Posted By: haertig
...But not someone who misses their target many times at a higher rate of speed, flailing around in an unsafe manner, but still managing to beat some arbitrary timer in the process.


You're not beating the timer if you're not getting the hits.

Top
#255541 - 01/15/13 07:44 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
gonewiththewind Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1517
He obviously was not experienced enough. Just a poncho or space blanket would have kept them alive if they huddled together under it. It does not take much increase in temperature to maintain life. But to lay down, in the open, and stop moving is suicide under their conditions. Building a shelter is not hard, even a pile of leaves, with the three and the dog, would have kept them alive. How the dad could have allowed this to happen is beyond my comprehension. I am trying to think of some thing that would excuse what he did, and I come up blank. Too many options available, and none of them taken.

I have two boys myself, I am a Scout Master. I could not imagine allowing anything like this to happen. I will read this article to the troop, and use it to justify why I make them all carry a poncho, survival kit and bottle of water even if they are only going 100 yards from the camp.

Top
#255544 - 01/15/13 09:16 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
Stephen Offline
Member

Registered: 04/09/12
Posts: 177
Loc: Canada
There has to be more to the story than this....
What perplexes me is that the guy was Air Force. I figured he should have had training in survival, however basic.

At any rate, I wasn't there so I won't speculate on what did or didn't happen.

Top
#255546 - 01/15/13 09:30 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: Stephen]
unimogbert Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 882
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Stephen

What perplexes me is that the guy was Air Force. I figured he should have had training in survival, however basic.



Once would hope so but in actuality, the Air Force doesn't run around in the woods in the mud and the rain so there's little need for such training except for aircrew who might find themselves shelled out of their warm cocoon and landing almost anywhere.

Top
#255547 - 01/15/13 09:50 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: unimogbert]
Stephen Offline
Member

Registered: 04/09/12
Posts: 177
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: unimogbert
Originally Posted By: Stephen

What perplexes me is that the guy was Air Force. I figured he should have had training in survival, however basic.



Once would hope so but in actuality, the Air Force doesn't run around in the woods in the mud and the rain so there's little need for such training except for aircrew who might find themselves shelled out of their warm cocoon and landing almost anywhere.


Excellent point.

Top
#255548 - 01/15/13 10:01 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
gonewiththewind Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1517
Not all military personnel receive survival training. A person who works in administrative or support roles will rarely receive any such training. Pilots, air crew and special operations personnel are generally the only ones who receive it as a minimum standard. Others do go through it at times, but not often. That goes for all branches. Even combat arms personnel in the infantry, artillery or armor do not often receive it. Living out in the elements can provide some experience, but that is not the equivalent of training for survival. Just serving in the military does not make one a survival expert by any means. Even attending a course does not.

Top
#255549 - 01/15/13 10:06 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
Glock-A-Roo Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 1076
Not every Airman gets to go to SERE school.

Top
#255552 - 01/16/13 12:06 AM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
JBMat Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 745
Loc: NC
Frankly, this guy screwed up badly and his sons paid the price along with him. I've read the stories. Plain and simple, his lack of planning, lack of equipment, and general poor decisions are what caused this tragedy. Don't know or care about his level of experience - even really good experienced people in the woods make errors. I am saddened that the two kids had to suffer for their father's errors.

Top
#255553 - 01/16/13 12:14 AM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
spuds Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/24/12
Posts: 822
Loc: SoCal Mtns
Hypothermia and clouded judgment,then rapidly overcome perhaps?

Somehow....a three hour tour,a three hour Tour...... comes to mind.

Im going with tragic accident here.Most people going hiking dont make much prep,its just a walk to most folks is my thinking.

Very sad.

Top
#255555 - 01/16/13 12:19 AM Re: Another tragedy [Re: JBMat]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
"Experienced" is a very subjective term; I have hauled the bodies of quite a few "experienced" outdoors folk out of the woods. The deal is that the first things affected by hypothermia, and by other types of environmental stress like hyperthermia, dehydration, etc., are the higher types of intellectual activity - making judgements, evaluating, and assessing conditions. just when you need to be really sharp and on the ball, you are impaired. I have gone down that slippery slope, fortunately not too far, a couple of times and "insidious" barely describes the situation.
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

Top
#255556 - 01/16/13 12:47 AM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
tomfaranda Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/14/08
Posts: 301
Loc: Croton on Hudson, NY
Terrible tragedy & since we don't know all the facts, think I'll go easy on the Dad.

Top
#255559 - 01/16/13 06:23 AM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
Phaedrus Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 3148
Loc: Big Sky Country
What a tragedy, and even worse that it would have been so easy to prevent. I'm sure that once hypothermia set in his judgement was affected, and perhaps they didn't realize how much trouble they were in til it was too late. My heart goes out to the rest of the family. What a way for a vacation to end.

Hopefully something good will come of this; if nothing else perhaps it will force other families to take steps to learn some skills and make sure they're properly prepared.
_________________________
“I'd rather have questions that cannot be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” —Richard Feynman

Top
#255563 - 01/16/13 04:33 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: unimogbert]
ILBob Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 776
Loc: Northern IL
Originally Posted By: unimogbert
IlBob - you might add a secondary thing to fear to your excellent and simple list:

A nice weather forecast that's wrong.

Trusting a weather forecast is sometimes necessary but don't bet your life on it if you can help it.



I do not go hiking if I expect bad weather, but I have been rained on a few times anyway when it was unexpected.

I just won't go out in the woods without some kind of protection from the rain, even when it is warm out.

Having said that, I was once much younger and stupider.
_________________________
Warning - I am not an expert on anything having to do with this forum, but that won't stop me from saying what I think. smile

Bob

Top
#255566 - 01/16/13 06:07 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
GoatMan Offline
Member

Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 119
This is a really sad story. I totally feel for the family. The pictures in the article show that he was a scout leader. The older of the two boys was a Wolf cub scout. That makes him about 8 years old. The younger brother is probably 6 years old. I have kids that old and it is VERY easy to understand some of the challenges he would be up against. When young kids get wet and really cold, they won't move anywhere. He likely carried one or both of them a long way trying to make it to a safe location. I sure the kids literally shut down long before he did. In that state, there is little to no chance they can contribute to making a shelter and he likely doesn't want to distance himself much from them to gather what he needs to provide some sort of shelter. There is no way he is going to leave them out there to make a fast trip for more help either. He probably carried them until he didn't have the strength to continue, then the three of them cuddle together under a large pine to try and stay warm enough to survive the night. But being soaked to the bone and temperatures in the 20's, hypothermia takes 3 lives.

We would hope that ponchos and emergency blankets would have been enough to keep them alive. I've slept in emergency bivvys and done survival overnighters, stayed overnight on hunting trips in a AMK bivvy because no sleeping bag was available. Emergency blankets suck. IF emergency ponchos would have kept their body cores dry and they could have had the emergency blankets with their body warmth together, I agree they likely would have survived the situation.

Sad, sad, sad...

Top
#255567 - 01/16/13 07:10 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
TeacherRO Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/11/05
Posts: 2574
This is why I always hike with a small backpack. Its got a 'few things' inside. Usually a poncho/ jacket, food bars, phone, survival/comfort/first aid kit, light & water.

Figure 3-4 pounds w/o water.

Top
#255568 - 01/16/13 07:27 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: Phaedrus]
Glock-A-Roo Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 1076
Originally Posted By: haertig
...But building a fire could have been quite tough in the downpour that was described...


Originally Posted By: Phaedrus
...I'm sure that once hypothermia set in his judgement was affected, and perhaps they didn't realize how much trouble they were in til it was too late...


I think one of the big lessons from this case is the importance of prevention, or "it is easier to avoid a trap than to claw your way out of one".

In the outdoors or any situation where resources are limited, the value of prevention is multiplied beyond its usual value in resource-rich environments. One of the chief takeaways I got from wilderness medical training was not how to do brain surgery in the woods with a paperclip (though I can do that wink ), but how vitally important it is to avoid seemingly simple problems: hypo/hyper-thermia, mobility killers like ankle injuries & trenchfoot, etc.

Because once you get in the hole, it is hard to extract yourself.

Top
#255569 - 01/16/13 07:50 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: TeacherRO]
unimogbert Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 882
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: TeacherRO
This is why I always hike with a small backpack. Its got a 'few things' inside. Usually a poncho/ jacket, food bars, phone, survival/comfort/first aid kit, light & water.

Figure 3-4 pounds w/o water.



Those are all good things to have.

I hike alone often. My bag of "just in case" weighs 20 lb w/o water.
A little of that is ballast for fitness training in carrying a load but all of it has potential use for survival situation. Staying out alone overnight with what I normally carry would still be VERY challenging. (I really ought to try it sometime for the learning experience)

Top
#255572 - 01/16/13 09:42 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
widget Offline
Addict

Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 550
So very sad, such a lovely family and great young boys. I have to pray for the family. it just hits hard when you lose children. This could have been prevented. Probably due to over confidence.

I am just amazed at the number of experienced people that go out with little preparation or survival gear. The consequences are so sad and tragic. Always prepare for the unforseen, it is better to carry some extra gear and not need it than to need it and not have it.
_________________________
No, I am not Bear Grylls, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night and Bear was there too!

Top
#255575 - 01/17/13 01:52 AM Re: Another tragedy [Re: gonewiththewind]
MoBOB Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 1219
Loc: here
Originally Posted By: Montanero

I have two boys myself, I am a Scout Master. I could not imagine allowing anything like this to happen. I will read this article to the troop, and use it to justify why I make them all carry a poncho, survival kit and bottle of water even if they are only going 100 yards from the camp.

I know a guy that carries a full pack (many, many pounds) of gear just to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night. He had a firearm, change of clothes, fire making stuff, three days of quick rations, and a shelter of some sort. He developed this habit when he was growing up outside of Fairbanks, Alaska where the trip to the outhouse in the middle of the night could get tricky. I knew him in Arizona. He did the same thing. I used to make fun of him because I said the only thing missing from his "daypack" was a glass-blowing kit. He is a prime example of being prepared. I learned a lot just from my association with him. Your Scouts are fortunate to have someone like you. Good show!!
_________________________
"Its not a matter of being ready as it is being prepared" -- B. E. J. Taylor

Top
#255581 - 01/17/13 01:46 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
ILBob Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 776
Loc: Northern IL
Something I wrote about this on another forum.

Quote:
Children do not tough it out. One of the BO issues most people with children seriously overestimate is how well children will hold up in a BO situation, especially on foot in bad weather. The just don't do well. He might have been able to tough it out and walk himself out of the woods (although this is not as easy as it may sound) but he would have had to leave the kids to die.

I don't know what happened to this guy but I can relate to how fast the weather can change. I walk the dog every morning. These days we leave about 4:30 and go about 3.25 miles. Typical suburban type streets and sidewalks. An easy walk.

One time I was about 3 blocks from home when it started to sprinkle. I decided to just walk faster. It was in the upper 40s and I am close to home walking on a paved street. How bad can it get? I leave my poncho that I had in a fanny pack in the pack. Shortly thereafter the sprinkles turn to a torrential downpour. I was wearing a more or less rain resistant nylon jacket. Within maybe 30 seconds I am soaked to the skin. It is raining so hard I cannot see the surface of the street I am walking on more than a few feet away. No wind to speak of, but I am just drenched. In the few additional minutes it takes me to get home I get pretty chilly. Nothing real serious, but if it had happened out in the woods 20 minutes from the car, I might well have been in trouble.

It was a good object lesson about having some protection from the elements and that if you get any warning at all that it is going to rain soon, damn well better put on the rain gear now rather than wait until I am soaked through. Now I see a few drops of rain and the poncho comes out of the pack and if not on me, it gets out of the pouch and in my pocket where I can put it on in about ten seconds.

If you have never been outside when a storm like this brews up, it is hard to realize just how fast it can go from a nice walk in the woods to a life threatening situation.

Another time I was walking the same route and it started to sprinkle so on goes my poncho. The wind picks up and I mean some serious wind. Again, I am only a few blocks from home on a paved street (actually the street is made of concrete pavers, but that is not an important part of the story). The serious rain held off until I made it home but the wind blew my poncho all over the place. If I had been out in the woods in that storm I would have been in trouble and soaked from the waist down.

People forget too how fast hiking conditions can change. Many trails are not well marked and when it gets dark or there is rain so you can't see more than 20 feet in front of you even with a flashlight, it can be easy to miss turn offs. If you have a paper map and it gets wet it is useless.

I was out a few weeks ago hiking and came across a couple on the trail. The gal was dressed appropriately. The guy was wearing blue jeans, a light windbreaker, no hat, no gloves, and low cut canvas shoes. He was obviously cold as he had his hands jammed in his jeans and had his shoulders hunched up. I don't know if he thought he looked cool for walking around in the cold shivering or what. I don't go out this time of the year without hat and gloves. I keep a snap ring on a pack strap so that I can hang them from the strap if I want to take them off as often happens once I start walking and warm up. But even if it is warm enough when I set out to walk without them, they are hooked to my strap. I also keep a spare pair of light weight gloves in an inner jacket pocket along with a balaclava.

I sometimes see guys on bikes out 2 or 3 miles from anywhere in the winter with nothing in the way of gear and dressed like it is summer. They are fine as long as they are humping it, but if they have to stop (say they get a flat), they are in trouble.
_________________________
Warning - I am not an expert on anything having to do with this forum, but that won't stop me from saying what I think. smile

Bob

Top
#255582 - 01/17/13 02:38 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: ILBob]
bacpacjac Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3601
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: ILBob
Something I wrote about this on another forum.

Quote:
Children do not tough it out. One of the BO issues most people with children seriously overestimate is how well children will hold up in a BO situation, especially on foot in bad weather. The just don't do well. He might have been able to tough it out and walk himself out of the woods (although this is not as easy as it may sound) but he would have had to leave the kids to die.

I don't know what happened to this guy but I can relate to how fast the weather can change. I walk the dog every morning. These days we leave about 4:30 and go about 3.25 miles. Typical suburban type streets and sidewalks. An easy walk.

One time I was about 3 blocks from home when it started to sprinkle. I decided to just walk faster. It was in the upper 40s and I am close to home walking on a paved street. How bad can it get? I leave my poncho that I had in a fanny pack in the pack. Shortly thereafter the sprinkles turn to a torrential downpour. I was wearing a more or less rain resistant nylon jacket. Within maybe 30 seconds I am soaked to the skin. It is raining so hard I cannot see the surface of the street I am walking on more than a few feet away. No wind to speak of, but I am just drenched. In the few additional minutes it takes me to get home I get pretty chilly. Nothing real serious, but if it had happened out in the woods 20 minutes from the car, I might well have been in trouble.

It was a good object lesson about having some protection from the elements and that if you get any warning at all that it is going to rain soon, damn well better put on the rain gear now rather than wait until I am soaked through. Now I see a few drops of rain and the poncho comes out of the pack and if not on me, it gets out of the pouch and in my pocket where I can put it on in about ten seconds.

If you have never been outside when a storm like this brews up, it is hard to realize just how fast it can go from a nice walk in the woods to a life threatening situation.

Another time I was walking the same route and it started to sprinkle so on goes my poncho. The wind picks up and I mean some serious wind. Again, I am only a few blocks from home on a paved street (actually the street is made of concrete pavers, but that is not an important part of the story). The serious rain held off until I made it home but the wind blew my poncho all over the place. If I had been out in the woods in that storm I would have been in trouble and soaked from the waist down.

People forget too how fast hiking conditions can change. Many trails are not well marked and when it gets dark or there is rain so you can't see more than 20 feet in front of you even with a flashlight, it can be easy to miss turn offs. If you have a paper map and it gets wet it is useless.

I was out a few weeks ago hiking and came across a couple on the trail. The gal was dressed appropriately. The guy was wearing blue jeans, a light windbreaker, no hat, no gloves, and low cut canvas shoes. He was obviously cold as he had his hands jammed in his jeans and had his shoulders hunched up. I don't know if he thought he looked cool for walking around in the cold shivering or what. I don't go out this time of the year without hat and gloves. I keep a snap ring on a pack strap so that I can hang them from the strap if I want to take them off as often happens once I start walking and warm up. But even if it is warm enough when I set out to walk without them, they are hooked to my strap. I also keep a spare pair of light weight gloves in an inner jacket pocket along with a balaclava.

I sometimes see guys on bikes out 2 or 3 miles from anywhere in the winter with nothing in the way of gear and dressed like it is summer. They are fine as long as they are humping it, but if they have to stop (say they get a flat), they are in trouble.


Well said, ILBob, and a great example of how things can go wrong in the blink of an eye. We need to stay vigilant and under estimate our ability to deal, especially when it comes to the young,elderly and the sick.
_________________________
Mom & Adventurer

You can find me on YouTube here:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT9fpZEy5XSWkYy7sgz-mSA

Top
#255589 - 01/17/13 06:33 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
Eugene Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 2995
We get funny looks when going even on a short hike on a nice summer day. Everyone else in short shorts, tank tops, and no pack. And we have our convertable hiking pants, shirt, Camelbak packs, etc.

Top
#255591 - 01/17/13 07:14 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: Eugene]
bacpacjac Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3601
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Eugene
We get funny looks when going even on a short hike on a nice summer day. Everyone else in short shorts, tank tops, and no pack. And we have our convertable hiking pants, shirt, Camelbak packs, etc.


Ditto. I just can't go without having the basics covered.
_________________________
Mom & Adventurer

You can find me on YouTube here:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT9fpZEy5XSWkYy7sgz-mSA

Top
#255595 - 01/17/13 07:47 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: bacpacjac]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
On foot on on the bike, I carry the "Ten" (Usually 12 or so, really) Essentials. I can cover the basics for a total weight penalty of two pounds or so (with the possible exception of adequate water), and that small amount can make all the difference. One absolutely must be able to light and sustain a fire and slap up or find some sort of shelter.
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

Top
#255776 - 01/23/13 03:22 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
gitnready4it Offline
Stranger

Registered: 12/27/11
Posts: 22
What a sad story. Prayers for the family.
_________________________
The future belongs to those who prepare today!

Survival Foods

Top
#255884 - 01/27/13 01:12 AM Re: Another tragedy [Re: widget]
ILBob Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 776
Loc: Northern IL
_________________________
Warning - I am not an expert on anything having to do with this forum, but that won't stop me from saying what I think. smile

Bob

Top
#255924 - 01/28/13 06:25 AM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
Phaedrus Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 3148
Loc: Big Sky Country
I have a bunch of those Banana Bags for the same purpose. They're quite heavy duty and the bright yellow is a plus.
_________________________
“I'd rather have questions that cannot be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” —Richard Feynman

Top
#255929 - 01/28/13 01:36 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: Phaedrus]
ILBob Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 776
Loc: Northern IL
Originally Posted By: Phaedrus
I have a bunch of those Banana Bags for the same purpose. They're quite heavy duty and the bright yellow is a plus.


It is a cheap and practical solution to a serious problem.
_________________________
Warning - I am not an expert on anything having to do with this forum, but that won't stop me from saying what I think. smile

Bob

Top
#255936 - 01/28/13 04:10 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: ILBob]
Jolt Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 11/15/10
Posts: 90
Loc: Maine
Banana bags...being in the medical field the term brings to mind for me something completely different!!

* it's a bag of IV fluid with added B vitamins and magnesium etc. that we give to patients who are alcoholics...the vitamins make the fluid yellow so it is nicknamed a banana bag!
_________________________
The rhythm is gonna get you...and if it's v-tach or v-fib, the results will be shocking!

Top
#256524 - 02/15/13 04:51 AM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
bigmbogo Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 82
OK. This is a wakeup call for me. Although I usually carry a basic kit, I definitely need some kind of emergency shelter.

The Banana Bag looks pretty cool. Other than the Banana Bag, what else do you guys recommend that is good for an emergency? Cheap, light, and rugged are most important. Big enough for 2-3 people is preferred, to combine warmth.

Suggestions?

David

Top
#256531 - 02/15/13 10:26 AM Re: Another tragedy [Re: bigmbogo]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
A 10x10 (ft) tarp is light, rugged (depending upon the specific material) and versatile. Cost varies with the material selected, the lighter fabrics generally becoming a bit spendy, but worth it if weight is a primary consideration. Also carry bits of rope or line to aid in rigging. These can be quite small or usable for other purposes.
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

Top
#256569 - 02/16/13 12:13 AM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
Good post. Really tragic.
It looks like they didn't have enough protection - then tried to make it out quickly when things went bad.
But the rain and the cold "won the race" against body energy.

I always carry a daypack, warm jacket and flashlight.
But i admit that I'm spoiled in CA and often don't carry a Bic lighter, matches or a tarp. I will add them ... because basically that's no weight at all.

I do have a SPOT2 device and always have that with me when I'm outdoors these days.

Pete2


Edited by Pete (02/16/13 12:14 AM)

Top
#256572 - 02/16/13 01:54 AM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3819
Loc: USA
Contractor bags are great for improvised shelter and can be used for other purposes. I always have a Heatsheets blanket with me, and my car kits have the Heatsheets bivvy.

Top
#256573 - 02/16/13 01:59 AM Re: Another tragedy [Re: chaosmagnet]
thseng Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 900
Loc: NW NJ
Howabout a poncho? Never leave home without raingear.
_________________________
- Tom S.

"Never trust and engineer who doesn't carry a pocketknife."

Top
#256580 - 02/16/13 06:41 AM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
Mark_M Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 295
Loc: New Jersey
One needs to remember that an experienced hiker is not necessarily a prepared hiker. Most people go through their lives without a thought about "what if" and 99.99% of the time things turn out okay. For these folks, being prepared to get stuck overnight while on a day hike is an indication of paranoia or lack of self-confidence.

What the general populace doesn't realize until it happens is it doesn't take a lot to turn your average day hike into a life-threatening disaster. An unexpected storm and one wrong turn or missed trail marker while attempting to rush back to safety could put you hopelessly off-course before you realize. So I can understand how things went off the rails for this family.

I was hiking with my kids since they were old enough to walk reasonable distances, sometimes before. I can't tell you how many trail miles I put in pushing one in a stroller and carrying another on my shoulders. There were a number of days when things didn't go according to plans. Fortunately we always had what we needed to make it safely home.

I don't know what switch gets flipped making some people more aware of their own safety and security, while most others live in blissful ignorance. My father wasn't that way, and none of the people I grew up with were either. I think it started when I was chosen to be my first son's Cub Scout's pack campmaster. Before then I wasn't into camping or the outdoors much. Since then I wouldn't even think of heading into the woods without enough gear and supplies to survive for a couple of days.

Most people still think I'm overdoing things. But I've learned to ignore the smirks and subtle head shaking when folks see what's in my pack during breaks.
_________________________
2010 Jeep JKU Rubicon | 35" KM2 & 4" Lift | Skids | Winch | Recovery Gear | More ...
'13 Wheeling: 8 Camping: 6 | "The trail was rated 5+ and our rigs were -1" -Evan@LIORClub

Top
#256581 - 02/16/13 07:45 AM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
Phaedrus Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 3148
Loc: Big Sky Country
This thread has been running a while yet I'm still having a hard time wrapping my mind around it. For want of a nail the kingdom was lost. It would have taken so little to save them in relative terms. It's difficult to imagine how the father must have felt when he realized they were in a pickle, having declined the offer of a ride out.
_________________________
“I'd rather have questions that cannot be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” —Richard Feynman

Top
#256593 - 02/16/13 09:35 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
I told my wife this story. She's from Missouri. Her first comment was this ... Yeah, that's Missouri at that time of year. One moment it can be 70 degrees, and the next moment it can be 10 degrees.

I think that was the father's problem in a nutshell. He just did not appreciate the huge changes in temperature that can occur rapidly during that season. Once they got soaked out there - they were in very serious trouble. The loss of the cell phone was also a huge setback.

Pete2


Edited by Pete (02/16/13 09:35 PM)

Top
#256599 - 02/17/13 01:23 AM Re: Another tragedy [Re: Pete]
Hikin_Jim Offline
Sheriff
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 10/12/07
Posts: 1804
Loc: Southern California
It really is tragic.

It is also a cautionary tale -- a good reminder to us all to go over our gear lists one more time.

When people tease me about carrying the 10,000 essentials,


I should hand them a copy of the article in the original post of this thread.

HJ
_________________________
Adventures In Stoving

Top
#256618 - 02/17/13 07:36 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
JBMat Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 745
Loc: NC
HJ - Could I ask why you decided to pack a small child? I've been camping quite a bit and have never needed one, nor seen the need to bring one along. I'm sure if you really needed one it could be improvised in camp - a simple effigy, small animals, etc. Maybe there is such a thing as bringing too much stuff.

(For the satire impaired - the above was a joke.)

Top
#256621 - 02/17/13 10:15 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
"HJ - Could I ask why you decided to pack a small child?"

My theory is that he's testing his ability to do extreme hiking while being in a totally sleep-deprived state. That method also worked for me in the past :-)

Pete2

Top
#256632 - 02/18/13 02:10 AM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
bigmbogo Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 82
The Heatsheets Bivvy and Blanket look great. These are the ones from Adventure Medical, yes? The price is right. Are they reasonably durable?

I wonder if a poncho made of this reflective material would be a great do-everything combination. It would probably get too hot for moving around in, but I think it might be very useful when just sitting around. I did a quick search and saw one on Amazon, but have no idea about the size or quality.

Any other recommendations appreciated!

David

Top
#256636 - 02/18/13 04:09 AM Re: Another tragedy [Re: bigmbogo]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3819
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: bigmbogo
The Heatsheets Bivvy and Blanket look great. These are the ones from Adventure Medical, yes? The price is right. Are they reasonably durable?


Yes to both. Durability is much higher than a thin Mylar "space" blanket but somewhat less than the sportsmans "space" blanket that I use as a small tarp.

I wouldn't care to carry a poncho made of this material -- I'd think the bivvy would be better for resting still, and a poncho would undoubtedly be pretty warm for moving around. You can improvise a poncho from a blanket at need.

Top
#256637 - 02/18/13 04:11 AM Re: Another tragedy [Re: Pete]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3819
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Pete
"HJ - Could I ask why you decided to pack a small child?"

My theory is that he's testing his ability to do extreme hiking while being in a totally sleep-deprived state. That method also worked for me in the past :-)


Shown this thread, my wife scoffs at all of us. HJ carries his daughter to balance the load.

Top
#256667 - 02/19/13 01:00 AM Re: Another tragedy [Re: Mark_M]
UTAlumnus Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 1019
Loc: East Tennessee near Bristol
Quote:
I don't know what switch gets flipped making some people more aware of their own safety and security, while most others live in blissful ignorance.


Some learn it from something like the Scouts. Some are just wired that way. Some survive when events say "Oh yeah? Watch this!" and decide never again will I be caught standing flat footed with my mouth hanging open.

For me, it was a combination of all three. Scouts & general attitude got a wake-up call from it taking 2 1/2 hours to get home one winter (normally 20min. drive).

Top
#256692 - 02/19/13 05:56 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
"Shown this thread, my wife scoffs at all of us"

Hahahahaha!!!
Too true :-)

Pete2

Top
#256723 - 02/21/13 02:16 AM Re: Another tragedy [Re: chaosmagnet]
bigmbogo Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 82
Originally Posted By: chaosmagnet
Originally Posted By: bigmbogo
The Heatsheets Bivvy and Blanket look great. These are the ones from Adventure Medical, yes? The price is right. Are they reasonably durable?


Yes to both. Durability is much higher than a thin Mylar "space" blanket but somewhat less than the sportsmans "space" blanket that I use as a small tarp.

I wouldn't care to carry a poncho made of this material -- I'd think the bivvy would be better for resting still, and a poncho would undoubtedly be pretty warm for moving around. You can improvise a poncho from a blanket at need.


Yeah, I think this makes sense. I was trying to multi-purpose the thing.

So although I know this has been covered elsewhere, since we're on the subject: which emergency poncho?

Criteria: 1. Reasonably durable 2. Small and light 3. Cheap 4. Large

I have seen some high-tech ones, but procrastinate getting them because of the high price. I have used the super-cheapy (like $1) ones, but basically a single time each. So just as the survival blanket we are talking about above is a good quality item at a very reasonable price, what sort of emergency poncho would be its equivalent?

David

Top
#256725 - 02/21/13 05:02 AM Re: Another tragedy [Re: bigmbogo]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3819
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: bigmbogo
So just as the survival blanket we are talking about above is a good quality item at a very reasonable price, what sort of emergency poncho would be its equivalent?


I'd be interested in such a thing as well. I either carry the $1 throwaways, a contractor bag, or my expensive, durable, breathable rain shell. It packs down reasonably well but would never fit in a cargo pocket.

Top
#256742 - 02/22/13 04:19 AM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
bigmbogo Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 82
I poked around a bit on Amazon, and found these, which got decent reviews:

http://tinyurl.com/bghgbjy

I emailed the company asking the weight, and they replied "about 1/2 a pound".

So I might order a couple.

David

Top
#256746 - 02/22/13 11:15 AM Re: Another tragedy [Re: Hikin_Jim]
bacpacjac Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3601
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Hikin_Jim
It really is tragic.

It is also a cautionary tale -- a good reminder to us all to go over our gear lists one more time.

When people tease me about carrying the 10,000 essentials,


I should hand them a copy of the article in the original post of this thread.

HJ



I hope to be this organized one day soon. As it is, I feel like Jim's picture could be my new edc, only with a much smaller munchkin.
_________________________
Mom & Adventurer

You can find me on YouTube here:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT9fpZEy5XSWkYy7sgz-mSA

Top
#256747 - 02/22/13 11:17 AM Re: Another tragedy [Re: bigmbogo]
bacpacjac Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3601
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: bigmbogo
I poked around a bit on Amazon, and found these, which got decent reviews:

http://tinyurl.com/bghgbjy

I emailed the company asking the weight, and they replied "about 1/2 a pound".

So I might order a couple.

David


YMMV, but I find these slightly more robust ones and little better than the $2 disposables. If you want something that will hold up for more than one use, I'd step up to these. They cheap ones can even rip while you're trying to get them out of the package, but they're great in a pinch.
_________________________
Mom & Adventurer

You can find me on YouTube here:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT9fpZEy5XSWkYy7sgz-mSA

Top
#256912 - 02/26/13 04:31 AM Re: Another tragedy [Re: bacpacjac]
bigmbogo Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 82
Originally Posted By: bacpacjac


YMMV, but I find these slightly more robust ones and little better than the $2 disposables. If you want something that will hold up for more than one use, I'd step up to these. They cheap ones can even rip while you're trying to get them out of the package, but they're great in a pinch.


Just to clarify: Are you saying they are "little better" (which to me means not really any better) or did you mean "a little better", which to me means a noticeable improvement? It sounds like you are recommending these on Amazon as an upgrade from the $2 ones, yes? Sorry if I'm a little slow on the uptake.

David

Top
#257085 - 03/03/13 02:22 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
bacpacjac Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3601
Loc: Ontario, Canada
A little better - they seem to be a bit thicker so a little more durable, IMO.
_________________________
Mom & Adventurer

You can find me on YouTube here:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT9fpZEy5XSWkYy7sgz-mSA

Top
#258340 - 03/30/13 03:56 AM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
bigmbogo Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 82
Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but I wanted to report I got these Totes ponchos http://tinyurl.com/bghgbjy and they seem pretty well made. And waterproof. I got survival blankets. too, so I'm hoping we are a bit prepared in case something like this happens to us.

David

Top
#258364 - 03/30/13 02:17 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
widget Offline
Addict

Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 550
For a few dollar more you can get a nylon poncho that will last many years. It also has grommets so it can be rigged as a tarp if needed. I keep a poncho in my pack, always. The one sunny day I decided to leave it behind on a trip, the rain came at the end of the day. Luckily it was warm out and the rain was light.

http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___43352
_________________________
No, I am not Bear Grylls, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night and Bear was there too!

Top
#258366 - 03/30/13 02:44 PM Re: Another tragedy [Re: airballrad]
ILBob Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 776
Loc: Northern IL
I am a big fan of carrying some kind of poncho out in the woods.
_________________________
Warning - I am not an expert on anything having to do with this forum, but that won't stop me from saying what I think. smile

Bob

Top
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >



Moderator:  Alan_Romania, Blast, cliff, Hikin_Jim 
March
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Who's Online
0 registered (), 324 Guests and 6 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
GallenR, Jeebo, NicholasMarshall, Yadav, BenFoakes
5367 Registered Users
Newest Posts
What did you do today to prepare?
by dougwalkabout
Yesterday at 11:21 PM
Zippo Butane Inserts
by dougwalkabout
Yesterday at 11:11 PM
Question about a "Backyard Mutitool"
by Ren
03/17/24 01:00 AM
Problem in my WhatsApp configuration
by Chisel
03/09/24 01:55 PM
New Madrid Seismic Zone
by Jeanette_Isabelle
03/04/24 02:44 PM
EDC Reduction
by EchoingLaugh
03/02/24 04:12 PM
Using a Compass Without a Map
by KenK
02/28/24 12:22 AM
Newest Images
Tiny knife / wrench
Handmade knives
2"x2" Glass Signal Mirror, Retroreflective Mesh
Trade School Tool Kit
My Pocket Kit
Glossary
Test

WARNING & DISCLAIMER: SELECT AND USE OUTDOORS AND SURVIVAL EQUIPMENT, SUPPLIES AND TECHNIQUES AT YOUR OWN RISK. Information posted on this forum is not reviewed for accuracy and may not be reliable, use at your own risk. Please review the full WARNING & DISCLAIMER about information on this site.