I ran across this news article about a New Jersey guy who used an inverter and extension cords with his new Toyota Prius while his neighborhood was blacked out.

The article got me thinking, especially considering the ongoing gasoline hassles there after Sandy, whether hybrid vehicles are any more efficient at generating electricity than a non-hybrid vehicle since electricity generation is so critical to a hybrid car? Any thoughts?

You could put a heavy duty alternator on any car. Not unusual for people with RVs so they can recharge the RV battery.

There are also generators that you can permanently install under the hood of many vehicles for AC generation.

I do this. It works very well.

It is perhaps not what you might think though. The 12V auxiliary battery is fed by a DC:DC inverter from the 205V traction battery which in turn is charged by the engine.

I clip a small inverter to drive the house to the 12V battery and it runs until the 205V battery is discharged. The engine then starts and charges the 205V battery up again and cuts out automatically.

Just running the central heating boiler and freezer the engine runs for a few minutes, say 8-10 every hourish but it is only a 750W inverter I am using and the draw is minimal. I understand that the DC:DC inverter for the 12V battery is comfortable with 100A so no problem there.

The only trick is locking the car with the engine on. It needs two keys.

Have a Google around, look for 'Priups', there are a number of websites devoted to it so it is not out of the usual. I have read of people installing 205VDC to 230VAC inverters but I don't find that too attractive.

The best source of electrical power comes from the large generator stations which burn large qualities of Coal, nuclear etc.

Getting the electric power to everyones homes over large geographic areas is the main problem here.

http://www.aip.org/tip/INPHFA/vol-9/iss-5/p8.html

The power grid frequency relaxation which was brought in a year or two ago, I suspect might be at the heart of the current power crisis.

The relaxation in the frequency stability requirements (load matching capacity) for the 60Hz US Grid was introduced to save money. The storm Sandy really shouldn't have caused such a widespread outage. There were apparently even problems with the Nuclear power stations (Level II emergency shutdowns for example) serving the north eastern seaboard geographic area, but this was not covered at all by the media.

As the 92 year old woman stated 'but why, Why is it taking so long?'. Why Indeed!

Continually being told 'it was the trees, what did the damage' is really just a lame excuse. The reprise should be 'I really don't care as a customer how you delivery the power, it really is not my concern as a customer, that is why you get paid for the service delivery'


The power companies at the heart of this crisis need investigation. If this happened in the UK, the power companies would be re-nationalised and the executives sacked after the public Judicial inquiry.

As this is not the way things are carried out in the USA, how about a Class Action Lawsuit to ensure that the power companies harden and make much more resilient the electrical grid distribution to inclement weather and other perturbations.

A Carrington Event sized solar storm event which could leave customers waiting for the electricity to come back on after a year or two could prove fatal for millions. A class action lawsuit might just save their lives in the future.

Yes, I think it would be quite a bit more efficient.

A conventional engine has to supply a lot of torque directly to the drivetrain, at a wide range of RPMs. There are many inherent inefficiencies in this arrangement.

In contrast, a hybrid vehicle is essentially a well-tuned genset. The engine is much smaller, since it only needs torque to rotate the alternator; and it when it runs, it is at a constant and efficient high RPM.

However: note that you can get a pretty sweet genny for the $10,000 differential.

State licensed electricians, not power company workers, are having to go house to house in the flood zones to ensure breaker boxes etc. are clean, dry, and operable.

There are far fewer available NY licensed electricians to do these home inspections than there are power line workers, who can be drawn from all over the country.

Fear of wrongful death or class action lawsuits in case of a preventable death(s) is part of the reason why this is a good idea.

It seems to me that this is a pretty innovative and effective way of providing emergency power. The Prius engine only needs to run intermittently, so gas consumption, noise and pollution is minimized. You already own and use the Prius regularly for normal activities, so no special storage requirements are maintenance are necessary to be ready for use in an emergency.

1,000W seems like it isn't enough to power essential systems. But I can't think of any reason why you couldn't hook-up a 2000W or even 3000W inverter to the battery. The auxiliary battery is rated 60Hr reserve at the standard 25A/Hr rate, which in my case would provide about 2 hours of power to the essential systems in my home (2 fridges, oil boiler/pump, TV, Phone, Internet, computers, cell phones, limited lighting).

I'm still not sure its worth spending the extra $10K to get a hybrid versus an equivalent-size gasoline-only econo-car. But it is another advantage to throw on the balance beam.

If you already have a Prius, the set-up described in the article is a neat last minute "MacGyver," but I don't see it as a substitute for more substantial preps. That car is a pretty expensive piece of equipment.

We put in a natural gas 8KW gewnerator, fully installed, for about 5K, and it provides a lot more power than the Prius set-up.

Portable gas generators in the 2 - 5 KW range are much cheaper. My old 5KW ran 12-14 hours on 5 gallons of gas. Prius or generator, you still need gas.

So IMO, the Prius power station does seem to be worthwhile as a primary source of emergency power. But first, get a real generator. Then, if you have a Prius and want a backup option, an inverter seems like a reasonable idea.

As always, the first thing to do is to calculate the critical amount of power you cannot live without, and size your preparations to at least cover this requirement. Then, if you can, add some power to cover other needs.

Thanks for the feedback. However, based on most of the responses, not sure if the gist of my question got through clearly. The question is not whether a Prius is a good substitute for a dedicated gennie (of course not). The question is if you're a typical two car family and one is a hybrid and one is a typical gasoline powered vehicle, is using the hybrid for emergency power like that NJ guy did more efficient than using the other car for power? I'm wondering if the hybrid is designed to produce electricity for less fuel per amp-hour than the alternator in a typical gas car?

One big conflicting factor for someone thinking of this choice may be whether you actually need to drive anywhere during the outage. If you do need to drive much, say, to check on friends or family members periodically during some disaster, then the fuel efficiency of the hybrid (compared to whatever other gas vehicle you may have) may tip the balance to using the gas vehicle for power and saving the fuel in the hybrid for driving around.

True HYBRIDS such as the Toyota and Honda models do supply torque to the drive wheels. Power to turn the wheels is delivered from the electric motors, the gas motor, or both depending on the amount of power needed and the state of battery charge. RPM's from the electrics and gas are fed into what Toyota calls the (IIRC) power split device which supplies torque to the wheels.

Wouldn't it make more sense to park the gas vehicle and use the hybrid exclusively if possible? That way you could save all the gas for the more efficient vehicle.

Thanks, UTAlumnus. Your explanation is much better. I was thinking of it solely in terms of a stationary generator, but that's an oversimplification.

More efficient vehicle for what?

For most people, the hybrid will get more gas mileage than a similarly sized gas vehicle so you use the hybrid for transporation. And if the hybrid is indeed more fuel efficient at generating electricity, too, then I can see the logic of reserving all your available fuel, from both vehicles, exclusively to the hybrid.

But if there's not much appreciable difference in power generating efficiency, in that case, it would seem to be logical to use the hybrid for driving and you can simultaneously run the gas vehicle for power back at home, if you want. In this case, you'd theoretically still use the same amount of fuel overall as you would if you just used the hybrid for transportation and all driving.

And while I'm asking, I might as also ask, so just how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

But how do you disguise your Toyota Prius to look like an AMC Pacer during an electrical grid outage so the Gennie thieves don't notice?

I seriously dug into how they work back in '06 before getting the first model year of hybrid Camry. I've heard differing descriptions but the Chevy Volt may work as a true electric w/ an onboard generator. Chevy's original descriptions made it sound like that but I've also heard that the motor would supply some power to the wheels.

I don't know what the generator efficiency is. I was thinking more along the lines of if it's not needed at home during the day, it would make more sense to both use it as a generator and transportation. Park the less efficient vehicle and use it as a mobile fuel container.

Yeah, the challenge is that hybrid design is a moving target. It's in constant evolution. (I always thought of "hybrid" as any combination of electric vehicle with a gasoline engine on board. Pretty broad category in itself. Then add the drive train variations mentioned ... oy vey.)

I am confident that, as a basic assumption, hybrids are by design more efficient as stationary generators. But does that matter much in the unconventional application suggested in the OP? Phew, I can't begin to prove that. Can you even get at all the energy in the main batteries? Some of these run at very high output voltages. That's the first of many question marks.

(Angels dancing is easier, as there are fewer variables. Fat or skinny? Ballroom, break dancing, or mosh pit? Is the pin compliant with ANSI standards?)

What you need is a fold-up, retractable "skin" of a Yugo or Trabant. No guy will even look at one, let alone touch it, for fear of instant celibacy.

No. The car's computer starts the engine to maintain a minimum charge.

Some years ago I remember reading of a proposed hybrid van or light truck that was to be marketed to builders and other contractors.
The proposed vehicle was INTENDED to be used for power generation, not just transport.
Cant remember the full specs, but AFAIR it was able to supply many KW at 120 volt AC, for site lighting and power tools.
The engine was to be stopped or started automaticly as needed, with power being supplied from the battery when possible.

Dont know if this vehicle ever made it to production ?

Most, perhaps all, hybrid vehicles use a power inverter to drive the electric motor at variable speed and permit of a brushless AC motor being used.
It should be possible for this same inverter to produce power for other purposes when stopped. Probably not a DIY project though in view of the cost and complexity of these vehicles.

You may be thinking of the circa 2003 "Dodge Ram Contractor's Hybrid." Appparently, it never went into production. I thought it was a great idea, and might have bought one...

Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Ram

Discription:
http://www.pickuptrucks.com/html/news/ram_contractor.html

Yes, AFAIR that is the one, pity it never made it into production.

I don't have a dog in this hunt but I do own a couple of Prius (Prii?), and '02 and an '07, and I'll agree hybrid engines are a constantly moving target, they are up to Gen III or Gen IV in the latest models. The 02 or 07 could be used as a pretty good generator substitute up to the practical limits that electricians can factor out for you - the gas engine would run only to top up the hybrid battery to continue putting out the current necessary for whatever load you're putting on it. Provided the load is low enough that it doesn't do long term damage to the hybrid battery then this might be worthwhile; watch out though for loads that could drain the battery to zero and cause a warranty repair, which nowadays runs about $3-4K for a Gen I battery (02 Prius). Frankly there is a lot of instrumentation to prevent that in driving scenarios, but they still advise you not to drive with no fuel.

Not sure where folks get the $10K cost differential between any Prius and an equivalent make/model, AFAIK the base Prius 2012 Gen III/IV runs $18K and has the most efficient mileage and hybrid battery to date, excellent durability and costs of operations etc; maybe if you buy an $8K Kia this could pencil out better to buy the Kia and the generator, however for the 99% of the time you're driving the Prius you are not, to put it bluntly, driving a Kia. I know, I've driven both, and a Prius is not a Kia like a Lexus is not a Yugo. But I digress...

On the more modern 2012 Prius there is a noticeable difference in gas mileage and battery operation over the 07, you cruise along below 28 MPH and you do so on electricity, no gas used. If you are waiting in a NJ gas line for hours this would be a great advantage over a conventional gas engine which has to run to give you heat; the Prius just used electricity and only powers up the gas engine to recharge the hybrid battery. Based on car rentals where I drove modern Prius I've gotten 50+ MPG and can attest to this stealth mode of driving electric.

My brother has a Chevy Volt and it runs fine on electricity for relatively short distances (commuter range). It needs to be recharged, and if electricity is out at your house you're up the creek - without a generator. In comparison the hybrid (gas-electric) has some definite advantages.

All this said the Prius has about a 300-350 mile range on a full tank and I factor that into our bug out plans; more modern Prius have larger range of travel on a single tank. And on the whole the Prius like many other cars does a good job of recharging from the 9V outlet and can handle the majority of comms and computing devices. During one windstorm I also recharged a small generator intended for running lights etc from the Prius during the day to allow hours of lights at night.

Great post, Lono, there's no substitute for first-hand info. Clearly my understanding of the cost differential is outdated/incorrect. My mistake.

Could you clarify something that I find confusing? If connecting an off-the-shelf inverter to a Prius, I assume it would be connected to the 12V auxiliary battery. But does the main battery pack (200V+) automatically keep the auxiliary battery charged?

err - I'm not sure doug, as you might guess i'm electrically challenged and shy away from currents and answers that may electrocute me or others. All I have a working knowledge of is driving Priuses and I'm a happy customer for that. I *think* when you plug in a simple inverter (you mean a socket plug into which you can plug in a standard household electrical plug?), it runs off the 12V battery, which is (probably) charged in the usual way. You need the car to be powered on to use the inverter, and the hybrid battery occasionally kicks on during charging, so there might be a charging connection, then again maybe not.

I get in and it works, and when it stops working I'll probably park it in the backyard and grow blackberries over it.

The Hybrid Silverado did around that time. It was only available for fleet purchase and was only an option on the loaded models with leather end push button 4x4. I get the same 21mog highway on a mid level model and maybe 1 mpg less city. I put the second battery tray under the hood that thee diesel trucks use and a battery there so I have the extra power feature just not the generator/starter and no engine idle like the hybrid.

It does not. A co worker needed a jump start when the 12v battery went low in his Prius.

I don't have any experience with the Volt but it should be able to charge it's battery and run the wheel motors off the gas engine. Quoted range is 380 miles. It's supposed to be cheaper/greener to charge it off mains power.
Volt power page

If you mean fully recharge its battery using the gas engine, the Volt can't do that. It will partially recharge the battery during operation to maintain a certain low, buffering amount of charge. But external power is required to fully recharge the Volt's battery.

Thanks for the clarification. Nothing I've seen mentions this (Chevy certainly doesn't).

The charging system on Toyota hybrids can charge them to a full charge depending on what you are doing. When driving on the interstate, they will stay near their normal full charge (all but one bar green). On the downhill side of a mountain, they can fully top off the battery (all bars on the display green).

This is all very interesting. I wonder why they don't make hybrid cars with built in 120 and extra 12V outlets? They seem to make a great auxiliary power source.

There was a cross-over/small SUV a few years ago with one in the cargo area. I don't remember the model or company except IIRC it was not hybrid.

There are quite a few vehicles that have 120v outlets built in. I know many mini-vans do.

From what I've seen though, most aren't very powerful. 100 watts at most. Enough to run, say, a small laptop. You could probably charge about 8 or 9 phones at the same time though.

Depending on the fuse size on your cigarette lighter, you can typically run a larger inverter than that. A 10amp fuse will allow a ~120 watt inverter. A 15 amp fuse will allow a ~180 watt inverter. A 20amp fuse will allow a ~240 watt inverter.

Years ago I bought a little 225 watt inverter for my truck, which has a 20amp cigarette lighter receptacle. I would use it to charge electronic devices (like my laptop) while on the road.

While you can't power a house off it, it worked great for charging small electronic stuff or running a small TV/DVD player.

My vehicle has a factory 150 watt inverter installed into the dash. These inverters can run laptops, gadgets, lower wattage 120v lights etc but certainly not enough to power much else.

I also have a store purchased, 300 watt inverter which can be powered either by a 12 volt accessory plug or directly to the battery with the supplied cables and clamps.

Any inverter bigger then this such as my 700 watt inverter should only be run directly from the battery otherwise you will start cooking fuses at higher wattage's.

I'm not sure using a Prius (or other hybrid auto) as described is a very efficient option and certainly is not a reason in itself to buy a hybrid car/truck. Use of a Prius may be expedient, but it isn't a good use of such a spendy asset.

A standard genset such as one of the Honda Generators and a storage device such as a Xantrex Powerpack and you can have a portable system that is quiet and fairly efficient wrt use of gasoline. Use the generator to power your refrigerator and charge the battery, and then shut down the generator and run the fridge (or whatever) off the battery.

This is so misleading, getting folks to think that they can use one of these as an alternative to a generator.

1500 Watts use for about 12 minutes at 50% DOD!!

Even more critical is that AGM SLA batteries need continual maintenance such as a trickle charge maintenance as they will self discharge quite readily over 6 months to the point that they will fail when the customer rolls them out thinking this product will see them through a power outage.

Even something like a Ring Automotive PowerPack 210 may prove to be more useful. Keeping the battery in continual use is always better than forgetting about it whilst is sits in the corner of the garage thinking it will work when required 6 months to a year later for that 12 minutes of use at full power!

I believe it's been discontinued, but sounds like the Honda Element that you're thinking of. Didn't they also have a built-in fold-out picnic table out the back? Among other uses, sounds very handy for tailgating!

Am_Fear_Liath_Mor makes a good point.

Running a household AC powered fridge via inverter and battery is not a good idea as the amount of stored battery power to even run an AC fridge for a day is financially impractical.

If one is looking to have a fridge for power outage use, then searching Craigslist for used dual 12 volt / propane powered RV fridges is a much better option. The fridges come in all sizes but of course will not replace your household fridge capacity wise. However they will have enough room to keep some milk and other perishables on hand.

I may be in the minority here, but rather than struggle with keeping a fridge going, I would simply consume all the perishables first and then switch to stored goods. This would mean powdered/condensed milk which rarely tastes like fresh unless mixed in cocoa, etc. Such are the sacrifices demanded in emergencies....

I simply don't like messing with gennies. One of the nice things about working at Channel Islands National park is that for years the island developments have been powered by solar and wind. Walk into a station and flip the switch; dust off the solar panel once in a while and enjoy the peace and tranquility...priceless!