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#247658 - 06/29/12 12:17 AM I Thought I Was Prepared
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2460
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
I have been on the path to being prepared for a month: water, food, first aid and prescription medications. I also have been working on getting out of debt.

I won’t say what triggered this discussion but my friend Lisa strongly believes we will run into a situation that could possibly last as long as a year in which resources such as water, electricity and food will not be available.

In a situation like this I believe our circle of friends and family is better off in one place, safety in numbers. One of whom just recently joined this forum but has not posted yet. Among the collective properties we have, only two have access to water. At a third location Lisa is trying her hand at gardening and is planning to put solar panels on her roof.

Here was the first problem that popped in my mind: Even if we divide our little circle among these three locations, there is not enough space for all of us. I brought this up in our discussion. Either we do not have a solution or no one wants to deal with it.

This is the biggest question that comes to mind: How do I motivate my party to work together on a solution? If we do have a year-long situation, I have family members who will go hungry given our current level of preparedness.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#247660 - 06/29/12 12:54 AM Re: I Thought I Was Prepared [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Dagny Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1917
Loc: Washington, DC
I know I'll never be prepared for what you describe. And I'm okay with that.

In this nation of 300 million the prospect of an entire year of not having water, electricity and food (the cataclysm which causes it surely would not stop at our borders) on a mass scale falls into the TEOTWAWKI category of scenarios that I have decided simply cannot really be prepared for.

Even if you could stockpile enough to get you and your circle through such a scenario -- does anyone think the 99.9% of the population not so prepared is just going to stand by and respect property rights in that scenario?

Without those basic services, our society cannot sustain 300 million people. For darn sure Mexico couldn't handle that situation. We cannot even conceive of the chaos -- riots, violence, despair, starvation and disease -- that would ensue.

If you have Warren Buffet's resources, you could buy an island, stock it and hire some guys to torpedo any boats that attempt to approach.

Most of the rest of us in the modern world are going to sink or swim together.

So I'm happy to be prepared for the reasonably likely threats - hurricanes, earthquakes, even small scale terrorist attacks.

TEOTWAWKI? No, I'm not even going to try. I'll only pray we never get to that point. And I am confident we will not.

So I urge you, Jeanette, to continue preparing, first and foremost, for the prospect that you will live to the ripe old average age of 87 or so because there will not be an armageddon in your lifetime. And the worst disaster you'll ever have to deal with will probably entail a power outage lasting a few days, maybe a week or two, and it will be caused by some precedented weather event.

At least your family is nearby. Mine are not even all in this country. I'm just going to have faith as well as some extra food and candles.

P.S. Have you done much camping? A sleeping bag doesn't take much space. A lot of people can cram into spaces and sleep for 8 hours. It just won't be pleasant long-term. Groups can also sleep in shifts, and you'd need to since 24/7 some peops are going to have to be guarding the supplies that everyone else in society ran out of months ago.



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#247661 - 06/29/12 01:07 AM Re: I Thought I Was Prepared [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
wildman800 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2828
Loc: La-USA
Questions:
1. How close together are these three properties/families?

2. Why can't each of the family units work on solving their own sustainabilty problems for their piece of property. ie: rainwater roof catchment system for the property that doesn't have access to water? Garden space that will maximize produce output on each property to try and feed that properties occupants?

3. Are other family members coming to each property owner's homes but won't be bringing food stuffs and other supplies with them?

4. Is one piece of property only grazing capable? Goats, cows, & chickens but not able to garden? Is only one piece or two properties only able to support gardening?

5. What are the common factors to promote yall coming together? One grows meat and swaps that for veggies with the other? To provide for a common defense against possible looters/raiders? Are you all next door neighbors or are these three properties too far from each other for mutual support with food, water, defense, etc.

I do not want answers to these questions but am merely trying to provide some food for thought from different angles. Where there are disagreements, put yourself in the other party's shoes and approach the problem from their POV. Also, perhaps consider that you maybe working up an alliance with the wrong people if no one is willing to compromise.

Just my thoughts off the top of my head.
_________________________
QMC, USCG (Ret)
The best luck is what you make yourself!

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#247667 - 06/29/12 01:49 AM Re: I Thought I Was Prepared [Re: Dagny]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2460
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Originally Posted By: Dagny
Even if you could stockpile enough to get you and your circle through such a scenario -- does anyone think the 99.9% of the population not so prepared is just going to stand by and respect property rights in that scenario?

That is why I am saying “safety in numbers.” Among us we have several guns and people who know how to use them.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#247670 - 06/29/12 01:54 AM Re: I Thought I Was Prepared [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2196
Loc: Beer&Cheese country
I'm not sure what you mean by 'not enough space.' Have you ever seen a car full of clowns (or a VW Beetle in the 60's?). Space is a commodity, especially in the US. You can fit 20-30 folks in a typical house if you really need to. Or look at the Navy and the term "hot bunking."

Probably a bigger and more realistic concern would be sanitation. That could certainly suffer easily. Though I suppose that garden would suddenly flourish.

I don't know that you can motivate people. You can educate them, and encourage them to start their own preps. Or you can let them starve for a week or 2 until they realize that, "hey, being part of this commune and getting some food sounds like a good idea!" But you can't force them to figure it out. And, honestly, if you approach most people with a "world's falling apart for a year, so get ready!" approach, they're going to laugh you off or commit you for medication. Baby steps, Jeanette.

Oh, as for safety in numbers. EVERYONE should know how to shoot the guns. If only 2 people do, it's not that hard for them to get shot. Remember the scene at the end of "The 3 Amigos?"

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#247677 - 06/29/12 03:47 AM Re: I Thought I Was Prepared [Re: MDinana]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2460
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Originally Posted By: MDinana
I'm not sure what you mean by 'not enough space.' Have you ever seen a car full of clowns (or a VW Beetle in the 60's?). Space is a commodity, especially in the US. You can fit 20-30 folks in a typical house if you really need to. Or look at the Navy and the term "hot bunking."

Sleeping on the floor is always an option. I was thinking about some of the other logistical problems. Is there enough space to store all of our needed supplies? Where do we cook for so many people?

Originally Posted By: MDinana
Oh, as for safety in numbers. EVERYONE should know how to shoot the guns. If only 2 people do, it's not that hard for them to get shot. Remember the scene at the end of "The 3 Amigos?"

Point. I have tried archery and I have good form. I have never transferred that to a gun.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#247689 - 06/29/12 07:01 AM Re: I Thought I Was Prepared [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Phaedrus Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2761
Loc: Big Sky Country
Personally I wouldn't waste much time worrying about a catastrophe that would make access to food, power, & water for a year. As has been stated, that truly constitutes an EOTWAWKI scenario. I don't feel there is a way to prepare for that no matter who you are. If you had a lot of land in a remote part of the country (perhaps bordering a wilderness reserve) you may be able to isolate yourself enough to protect your supplies. Realistically Alaska might be the only state in the union where you could get that remote. If you live in a city I think it's utterly impossible that you could live for a year with no resupply in a fixed location. Once all the supplies ran out, and we're talking a week or two, how would you be able to defend your years supply of food and water? Personally I think we're better off preparing for the stuff that's more likely to occur than worrying about the end of days.

That said, if it's truly something you're concerned about you probably should start trying to figure out how to live a lifestyle that puts a lot of distance between you and any metro area.
_________________________
“I'd rather have questions that cannot be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” —Richard Feynman

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#247690 - 06/29/12 09:10 AM Re: I Thought I Was Prepared [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
frediver Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 213
Loc: N.Cal.
Cooking for a large group on a normal kitchen stove is no big deal, cleanup is another matter. I have regularly cooked for 30 adults on
mine, 2 fridges and a 20 ft. freezer might be handy as long as you have power, so would a big double sink.

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#247691 - 06/29/12 12:47 PM Re: I Thought I Was Prepared [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
roberttheiii Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/13/09
Posts: 342
Loc: Connecticut, USA
My plan for an TEOTWAWKI is pretty simple - do my best to live like people who are living TEOTWAWKI now. By this I mean, if you dropped me off in some remote impoverished village with no toilets, doctors, electricity, what have you, life would be hard. I might not make it. But people certainly do. We're just very used to a modern lifestyle. Humans don't need much to keep the a heart beating. Think simpler. If you really think you'll have good water access and a reasonable fuel supply (talking wood or other naturals here) buy yourself 500 lbs of dried stuff (beans, grains, etc) per person and have fun.

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#247695 - 06/29/12 02:31 PM Re: I Thought I Was Prepared [Re: roberttheiii]
adam2 Online   content
Addict

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 450
Loc: Somerset UK
Any chance of any familiy members being able to move, still each in their own property but in adjacent properties ?
That could be very valuable for sharing rescources and defensive arrangements.

In the present economic climate, you might be able to buy several adjacent foreclosed properties cheaply.

It does presume of course that one or two of you have neighbours willing to sell.
Remember that gardens that back onto each other from houses in different roads, are arguably as useful as being next door neighbours.

Or could everyone sell up, and pool rescources to buy a single very large property with ample room for all.

Plenty of ground is desireable, both for crop growing and for building another home for relatives, or parking mobile homes or RVs (this is probably prohibited normally, but who cares after TSHTF)

If considering PV, make very certain that you are getting a stand alone battery charging system and not a grid tied one.
A grid tied PV system can be worthwhile economicly whilst BAU continues, but gives NO PROTECTION WHATSOEVER against power cuts.

Firearms are undoubetedly useful, but do not have too much faith in going armed, rememember that the other lot may be better armed, more numerous, or simply lucky.

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#247698 - 06/29/12 03:19 PM Re: I Thought I Was Prepared [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Tyber Offline
Sheriff
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/27/09
Posts: 299
Loc: ST. Paul MN
This is an interesting topic, but this site is not a TEOTWAWKI forum. We like to base most of our decisions on the presumption that civilization is either something we can get to, or will return to us.

With that in mind I would say that this is a good question to pose in the frame of mind of, "what if I can't store everything I may need?, or enough of what I need?"

To that my answer is that an agile mind often is the best solution when it comes to not being able to have everything you need.

Maybe you can't keep years worth of water. Actually for a years worth of water I am not sure I could keep one year just for me and my dog. Considering that most recommend 1 to 3 gallons per day per person. So Lets play with this for a moment. Let’s say 3 gallons per day for me (I am a heavy drinker) times one year 365 days that is about 1095 Gallons, and that is just for me. Add to it my pooch at about 1 gallon per day and suddenly your over 1300 gallons. I will make no delusions that I could effectively store that much water. But I can create water; I can clean water, and catch rain/snow. So I don't see the need to have a years worth of water on hand, rather a way to clean/make drinkable water.

Not the same scenario when it comes to food. I don't plan on running out and start hunting squirrels and the such after day 30.

Rather I feel more confident that society will re-create itself or return. Meaning that while you may not have electricity for a year for some unknown reason; the community you are in will find a way to get what it needs to survive. I know that The Tsunami victims were without a lot for an extended amount of time and even Tokyo had to lessen its electricity consumption while they tried to figure things out. But, society did find it's way back to those who were struck by that disaster.

I am not saying you should not be self sufficient. Just be self sufficient for an amount of time like play for 60 days. Don't become obsessed with a one year scenario. Just start with one month. Then work up to two.

Just my thoughts

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#247700 - 06/29/12 03:34 PM Re: I Thought I Was Prepared [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
LesSnyder Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 1638
Loc: New Port Richey, Fla
Adam2...from the "Clocktower" 22nd SAS

"we are the Pilgrims,master; we shall go Always a little further...J.E. Flecker

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#247702 - 06/29/12 04:27 PM Re: I Thought I Was Prepared [Re: Tyber]
dougwalkabout Offline
Crazy Canuck
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 2919
Loc: Alberta, Canada
There is value in preparing for shorter-term disruptions. These can do occur. But in the big picture, civilization will keep lurching along and some level of normalcy will be restored.

I do ascribe to a reasonable degree of self-sufficiency, and gently encourage others to do the same. The overall goal is to cultivate resiliency, a cushion to smooth out the bumps in the road.

To some degree, this is about useful skills and hobbies. It's also about financial choices. And having a productive garden, and a good store of food in freezer and pantry. But most crucially, it's about finding personal satisfaction and enjoyment in all of these things.

All this has to fit in with the rhythm of normal, everyday life. There are responsibilities to carry out, work to do and bills to pay. It's the opposite of the head-for-the-hills approach.

The challenge for the OP is to help people see how preparations for unforseen events can enhance enjoyment and satisfaction in normal life.

My 2c.

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#247703 - 06/29/12 04:39 PM Re: I Thought I Was Prepared [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Bingley Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1442
Originally Posted By: JeanetteIsabelle
That is why I am saying “safety in numbers.” Among us we have several guns and people who know how to use them.


On survivalist forums, people seem to expect that in the sort of situation you describe, armed gangs will take over. I don't know whether that's true, and as some of you know, I'm like Dagny in that I don't do long term preparation (too much for my budget). What if Humungus shows up with his gang of marauders? Are you prepared to repel an armed invasion by an organized, possibly mechanized group that outnumbers you?

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#247710 - 06/29/12 07:22 PM Re: I Thought I Was Prepared [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
LesSnyder Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 1638
Loc: New Port Richey, Fla
Bingley... it's nice to have the equipment and skill set to undertake the challenge you pose... and at my age and temperment better than the alternative...I'm not fast enough any more to get a Grand Master card, so I'll settle for Limited Master (USPSA)

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#247718 - 06/29/12 10:37 PM Re: I Thought I Was Prepared [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Finn Offline
Member

Registered: 08/04/11
Posts: 173
Loc: Colonial Heights, VA
Hi Jeanette,

Most of my adult life I have been involved in leadership situations to some degree. I have had the benefit of both military and corporate education. Very simply, leadership is getting someone to do what YOU want them to.

If these friends of yours will not cooperate now, they will not cooperate in the future. Leadership may certainly shift at any moment to anyone in a group, so you do not need to concern yourself with exerting your will on anyone else. You seem to be seeking consensus and that is good. Unfortunately, it appears that your friends are not.

I respectfully suggest that you make plans without them. Find folks who WILL work WITH you.

Good luck!
_________________________
People don't like to be meddled with.
~River Tam

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#247726 - 06/30/12 03:21 AM Re: I Thought I Was Prepared [Re: Finn]
Snake_Doctor
Unregistered


I agree with finn about selecting people who will help and not be a burden. What Tyber doesn't seem to realize is that there people who live in areas where water is scarce and MUST store it. %% gallon drums are great for long term storage if the water is properly treated. If it really hits the fan my intention is to try and ride it out at the ranch. I have a cabin we could go to if neccesary. As for those who say that a disaster won't be that bad, that the community will band together, etc, I say I want to go where you are if it happens. Let's not forget a little rainstorm called Katrina. I was there in the aftermath, looking for family. I saw what happened. But lets say it's an internal problem which arises and and there are no services available. Do you really think people will remain civil when thier kids are starving and they smell stew coming from your home? Or the kiddies are shivering in rags and yours are in goose down or army surplus and warm? I grew up dirt poor (second poorest family in town) and I know what it is to need. To starve. And the thoughts which run through ones head when others have what you need. Just my opinion.

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#247741 - 06/30/12 11:53 AM Re: I Thought I Was Prepared [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Finn Offline
Member

Registered: 08/04/11
Posts: 173
Loc: Colonial Heights, VA
I recently moved out of a horribly impoverished and ill-run city. My preparedness was for me & my family. Safety & security were major concerns. However, after Hurricane Irene struck last summer I was amazed at the decency & humanity of my neighbors.

That said, the goal is to now move to a place more remote than the suburbs and to work towards greater self-sufficiency. TEOTWAWKI may never happen, but infrastructure hiccups do. This need not be a retreat or compound, just a family home in the county.

I want to gather my "tribe" so that my loved ones (kith & kin) are near. Likely enough, it will be me and the children.
_________________________
People don't like to be meddled with.
~River Tam

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#247775 - 06/30/12 09:32 PM Re: I Thought I Was Prepared [Re: Finn]
haertig Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2203
Loc: Colorado
I believe that if you have to survive a period of one year without electricity, water, etc., here in the US, then there is basically NO CHANCE that on day 366 things will return to normal. If you have to survive on your own for a year, you better be ready to survive on your own FOREVER. You simply cannot "stock up" enough stuff. You have to plan on other ways to sustain yourself besides stockpiles in the basement.

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#247777 - 06/30/12 10:12 PM Re: I Thought I Was Prepared [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
chaosmagnet Online   content
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3427
Loc: USA
The way I figure it, the chances of there being a survivable large-scale catastrophe that would keep us away from utilities and the grocery store for more than two weeks are pretty darn remote. It's not something I worry about.

I'm well-prepared for two weeks, and if we could find a source of water that wasn't contaminated we'd be okay for about a month. I figure that with some financial and storage sacrifices we could probably extend that period to two or three months but beyond that we'd really need to move.

For us it would require a huge shift in lifestyle: we'd have to move to a rural area, buy or build a house with quite a bit more storage than we have now, and either store a lot of food and water or have it available from natural resources. I'd have to find a new line of work.

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#247778 - 06/30/12 10:17 PM Re: I Thought I Was Prepared [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Dagny Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1917
Loc: Washington, DC
1.5 million households and businesses in the DC metro region are without power today - another 100-degree heat index day. For a couple of my friends in northern Virginia, no power = no water (because they are on a well).

Preparedness is a vogue topic of discussion around here today.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-t...ry.html?hpid=z1


Blessed not to have lost power, I've been loaning coolers and radios to less fortunate friends. And my Gransfors Bruks 31" American Felling Axe cleared a road at midnight.

Hard enough to persuade people to be prepared for seasonal storms and a few days without power. Good luck persuading others not already into preparedness into buying into a one-year TEOTWAWKI prepping plan.

Maybe start smaller with family and friends and use a Cat 5 hurricane scenario as something to plan for.


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#247782 - 07/01/12 12:39 AM Re: I Thought I Was Prepared [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Eric Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/09/06
Posts: 323
Loc: Iowa
If long term independence from utilities etc. is a goal (which it seems to be given a one year time frame) you need to start by assessing the practicality based on your location. If you live in or near a major metropolitan area, I foresee nearly insurmountable challenges in terms of storing "enough" for a year, in part because you may literally need to store what you need as opposed to ways to get what you need.

On the other hand if you live, or are willing to move somewhere a bit less civilized (which really means citified), the challenges can become more manageable. As recently as the 70's there were places in the USA without electric service and people who lived with greatly reduced dependence on the infrastructure we have grown accustomed to. Of course if we are really looking at a year with out our typical infrastructure I think even the most rural, independent area is going to come up short on a few things and have to find alternatives, most of which (like animal power) have been set aside in favor of more convenient solutions.

So I guess the short version goes, I don't see a practical reason to try to store supplies past a month or two. After that you are better off thinking in terms of means legally acquiring what you need with the assumption it won't be available for purchase.

- Eric
_________________________
You are never beaten until you admit it. - - General George S. Patton


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#247787 - 07/01/12 02:37 AM Re: I Thought I Was Prepared [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2460
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
As Mdinana mentioned, my friend Melissa and I talked about and others echoed, “baby steps.”

My goal was a month and I am close to reaching it. Now I’m thinking, extend that to two months and put a plan together to implement that.

In bouncing ideas off each other, Melissa did point out the benefit of this house as it has the most storage space. Buy just a little extra at a time and rotate the stock. This property is centrally located not only geographically but socially making it an attractive option. This gives me a chance to lead by doing.

Melissa also went further into her property down south, one of the three locations first mentioned. It is already off the grid and the huntress has talked about the deer in the area. The real disadvantage is, that house of hers is tiny.

For clarification I mentioned a year because in the discussion with Lisa, a year would be the worst case scenario.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#247795 - 07/01/12 04:26 AM Re: I Thought I Was Prepared [Re: Dagny]
powerring Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/25/08
Posts: 32
Originally Posted By: Dagny
1.5 million households and businesses in the DC metro region are without power today - another 100-degree heat index day. For a couple of my friends in northern Virginia, no power = no water (because they are on a well).


I'm in Central Virginia and we not only had a lot of damage but, sadly, at least two deaths in the immediate area. According to the Governor, it was the largest power outage ever in Virginia for a non-hurricane.

Storms like this really do help you focus on the little things: flashlights, batteries, radios, water... Spaghettios. ;-)

We feel incredibly blessed to have power and utilities today when hundreds of thousands in the state do not in 100+ F temperatures.

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#247806 - 07/01/12 11:45 AM Re: I Thought I Was Prepared [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
LesSnyder Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 1638
Loc: New Port Richey, Fla
kind of a repeat, but a small battery powered fan (tent fan) that can be adapted to a 12v auto battery can make sleeping in 90+ weather possible...

if they weren't so expensive as an antique, would have one of the Sterling engine fans that are driven off kerosine lantern

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#247819 - 07/01/12 04:49 PM Re: I Thought I Was Prepared [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Dagny Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1917
Loc: Washington, DC
Originally Posted By: JeanetteIsabelle
My goal was a month and I am close to reaching it. Now I’m thinking, extend that to two months and put a plan together to implement that.



That is excellent, Jeanette! You got to that level of preparedness pretty quickly - great work.

I like the idea of extending your goal a month at a time. Not as daunting and it puts you in a position in a more routine disaster situation to be able to use your stocks to help a few or more friends and family for a shorter period of time.

This weekend I've been posting on Facebook some of my favorite preparedness gear that came in handy Friday night. Also posted a link to Survivalmom's new book.

Am hoping some peops I don't ordinarily talk to about this stuff will now be sufficiently motivated to be more prepared for the next power outage.

We are all more prepared if our friends, neighbors and family are.



.

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#247820 - 07/01/12 04:51 PM Re: I Thought I Was Prepared [Re: LesSnyder]
Dagny Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1917
Loc: Washington, DC
Originally Posted By: LesSnyder
kind of a repeat, but a small battery powered fan (tent fan) that can be adapted to a 12v auto battery can make sleeping in 90+ weather possible...

if they weren't so expensive as an antique, would have one of the Sterling engine fans that are driven off kerosine lantern



Ditto. I have battery-powered tent fans and fans that clip to my camp chair that would be very nice if I'd lost a/c. They are not terribly expensive. Amazon carries a bunch.

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