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#247027 - 06/13/12 06:58 PM Re: Fallout shelter [Re: Ironwood]
Arney Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Ironwood
My plan is a "non-ground zero" shelter mostly oriented toward earth shielded and marginal blast proofness. We are not a good target where I live. just likely to get downwind impact. Thanks for the recommendation .

Ironwood, could you clarify something because I'm a bit confused about your stated goals. On the one hand, you want a shelter against blast forces, although you only expect downwind effects, meaning fallout, I assume? I don't mean to bust your chops just for the sake of it, but just trying to get a clearer focus of what kind of situation you're trying to prep for. And I'm certainly no armchair expert on radiation and nuclear war scenarios, so for what it's worth--

Unless some nation-state is attacking us with ICBM's from a long distance, I wonder if it is practical to plan on a scenario where there is enough warning seek shelter from blast effects? Seems that a relatively small, low yield nuke device snuck into a high value target area and exploded at or near ground level surreptitiously would be a more likely scenario today. Sounds like you don't live in a high value area, like DC or Manhattan.

Have you considered making evacuation your primary response? If downwind effects are your main worry, I would personally get out of Dodge, especially with young kids. Unlike a full scale nuclear exchange that we all feared during the Cold War, an isolated nuke is going to leave plenty of areas to escape to. There isn't as much need to hunker down for weeks or months nowadays IMHO. And as Chernobyl and Fukushima demonstrate, it's not like these radionuclides that contaminate your area are going to just fizzle and disappear any time soon. The sooner you can leave the affected area, the less damage to you and your family. I think in your situation, I would worry more about the longterm damage to your family, and less on the acute effects so that's where my thinking is coming from.

So, assuming something like an isolated detonation and no major direct blast or gamma ray effects to really worry about, I think I would focus on evacuation. I may hunker down for a short time to let the most radioactive, short half-life radionuclides and fallout dissipate first and figure out which way the radioactive plume is heading, then proceed to bug out. Not sure if there would also be a mad rush to escape at first or not. Nutritional measures to mitigate radiation exposure inside our bodies, respiratory protection, particularly for the kids, and having enough uncontaminated food and water to make it to safety. Of course, if EMP is in play in your area, too, and knocks out all transporation... Hmm, that's a pickle.

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#247031 - 06/13/12 08:23 PM Re: Fallout shelter [Re: Arney]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 2975
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Arney
Of course, if EMP is in play in your area, too, and knocks out all transporation... Hmm, that's a pickle.


A small nuke set off near ground level should have a very small EMP footprint.

The latest information I've read suggests that modern cars will suffer significantly less from EMP than originally feared.

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#247033 - 06/13/12 09:00 PM Re: Fallout shelter [Re: chaosmagnet]
Arney Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: chaosmagnet
The latest information I've read suggests that modern cars will suffer significantly less from EMP than originally feared.

Yes, that's a big if regarding EMP. A terrorist scenario will likely not be a high altitude detonation. Then again, a different terrorist scenario would be an EMP attack using a device specifically created for that, like a high power microwave-type weapon, but that's another topic.

I've read that about modern cars, too, although I don't know if anyone has actually tried to test that out in one of the few facillities that can simulate an EMP. So, that may just be an educated guess by someone.

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#247034 - 06/13/12 09:24 PM Re: Fallout shelter [Re: Ironwood]
wileycoyote Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 274
Loc: eastern oregon
find an old copy of "Life After Doomsday" by Bruce D. Clayton, best how-to-survive-a-nuclear-attack manual i've found, which contains many references to, and even copies of, Kearney's documents. having been published in 1980 its a bit outdated but much of the basic info is still important. plus its useful for finding the right mind-set and focus.

i just checked to see if the book is still available and it is.

additionally, amazon posted this info about the author:
"...Clayton is a state-certified instructor of radiological defense techniques and fallout shelter management in California and has been trained in disaster shelter management and damage assessment by the American Red Cross. ..."

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#247045 - 06/14/12 01:23 AM Re: Fallout shelter [Re: Ironwood]
Ironwood Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 05/15/11
Posts: 87
Arny,

No worries on chop busting. In addition to many other talents I am a welder and blacksmith and will do all the necessary protections but not the super crazy door specs (like a vault with internal rods). I will do the 90 degree turn, heavy door (concrete reinforced)but not one of the $4000 dollar ones. so, to answer, it will primarily be fallout shelter with some blast hardening options. ventilation system will be simple but effective, likely use a large butterfly valve with removable rods as a backup (cheap and common wood dust airlock type)should suffice.Mostly doing this on the cheap, and self building. I work in many mediums and in all sorts of ways, tinkerer, inventor, designer.

Yes, consider evac. and have some preps in that regard. challenge is fuel stockpiling, I usually have 300 gallon diesel here for truck (forklift/ truck crane to load it on truck/trailer with)You really cant stockpile gasoline in any quantity due to shelf life issues. Bug out issues include traffic jambs, road problems (human panic type), and go to where (long term location)? Also, what if you blow some tires, how you gonna get those fixed in the middle of a crisis? Got foam filled tires or run flats? Just some thoughts. I would rather wait it out here for a few critical weeks, then move once known issues would be addressed. Ideal bug out vehical, is diesel, dually, carrying fuel and water, split 50/50 truck trailer. ditch trailer if need be. fuel is 2400lbs, water is about same wieght.

I just think a smart targeting plan (terrorist side) will include small nuke with the potenial for other elements dominoing afterward. This would create multiple risks to public health, and hence panic. I do have full face masks for the kids and my wife and I and picked up some new "riot control" MSA filters (40 that retail for $38 each for $100 for all 40 pieces new in sealed pouches) These are for tear gas so may not be effective for other gases but better than just a particulate filter. I have been reading up on decon issues and proceedures and decon rooms. gonna get some Tyvek suits to keep in the bag with the masks. Mostly wanna keep the kids safe. they are young, I may even have them dress up next Halloween in their suits to make them more comfortable with the idea of wearing them.

Ironwood


Edited by Ironwood (06/14/12 01:45 AM)

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#247059 - 06/14/12 12:57 PM Re: Fallout shelter [Re: Ironwood]
Dagny Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1916
Loc: Washington, DC
From the thread this winter on the recent report on a DC nuke scenario:


In sum, duck and cover....

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/dhs/fema/ncr.pdf


Posted at 10:48 AM ET, 03/16/2012

Government study predicts the fallout of a nuclear terrorist attack in D.C.

"A recent study conducted by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) analyzed the specific implications of nuking the intersection of 16th and K streets NW.

The key to the question, it seems, is the size of the bomb. Ten kilotons is considered “small” by nuclear weapon standards and would presumably leave survivors, according to the study."


The study itself:

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/dhs/fema/ncr.pdf

"Another urge to overcome is the desire to flee the area (or worse, run into fallout areas to reunite with family members), which can place people outdoors in the first few minutes and hours when fallout exposures are the greatest.Those outside or in vehicles will have little protection from the penetrating radiation coming off fallout particles as they accumulate on roofs and the ground.

Sheltering is an early imperative for the public within the broken glass and blast damage area, which could extend for several miles in all directions from a blast.There is a chance that many parts of the area may not be affected by fallout; however, it will be virtually impossible to distinguish between radioactive and non- radioactive smoke, dust, and debris that will be generated by the event (see Figure 5). Potentially dangerous levels of fallout could begin falling within a few minutes."


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#247060 - 06/14/12 12:59 PM Re: Fallout shelter [Re: Ironwood]
Dagny Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1916
Loc: Washington, DC
And also from that winter thread:



This little nuke could cause "flash blindness" during daytime out to 12 miles - the blindness could last from several seconds to minutes. That'll make the traffic cams interesting viewing.

Also EMP discussion. Lots of interesting detail in this report.

Must remember: bright flash = don't look out the windows.


"Because of EMP and effects of a blast wave on critical infrastructure (e.g., power and communication substations), for planning purposes it should be expected that electricity and land line communication would not be functional in the SDZ, MDZ, and LDZ.The disrupting nature of the detonation, including a sudden loss of electrical load on the power grid and the possibility of cascading infrastructure issues may affect the electrical and communication infrastructure of surrounding counties.

Fortunately it is likely that most battery (or hand crank) radios in the LDZ will still function. Moreover, emergency radio broadcasts from surrounding areas will be received and instructions provided (EMPC, 2008). Modern vehicles would also likely be unaffected outside of the SDZ and MDZ; however, debris on roadways, traffic accidents caused by flash blindness, and the loss of traffic control systems (one of the more sensitive electronic systems with respect to EMP effect) will make vehicular travel challenging in the LDZ."

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#247061 - 06/14/12 01:04 PM Re: Fallout shelter [Re: Ironwood]
Dagny Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1916
Loc: Washington, DC

Makes a lot of sense to harden part of the house - interior space or basement - especially in areas also prone to wind events.

Given the space, money (or skills to to it yourself) - a shelter in the yard that accessed the house via a tunnel as well as a separate surface access seems worthwhile, too.

It's not on my priority list but we're all about noodling scenarios on ETS and there is still a nuclear threat - with more dimensions than commonly imagined even thirty years ago.

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#247063 - 06/14/12 03:24 PM Re: Fallout shelter [Re: Dagny]
Russ Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4963
Loc: SOCAL
I read somewhere that the nuclear power reactors which provide a lot of electricity need the grid to power their coolant pumps. A safeguard so the the very reliable grid would provide for this critical function. If an EMP causes a grid cascade, those pumps get turned off. If that power is not restored quickly, the nuclear blast may be the least of our problems. Fukushima on steroids, here...

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#247066 - 06/14/12 03:51 PM Re: Fallout shelter [Re: Russ]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 2975
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Russ
I read somewhere that the nuclear power reactors which provide a lot of electricity need the grid to power their coolant pumps. A safeguard so the the very reliable grid would provide for this critical function. If an EMP causes a grid cascade, those pumps get turned off. If that power is not restored quickly, the nuclear blast may be the least of our problems. Fukushima on steroids, here...


Every site has backup power. Fukushima would not have gone the way it did if the tsunami hadn't taken out all the backup power.

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