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#246080 - 05/21/12 05:28 PM Re: CERT Expectations [Re: Bingley]
Arney Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
Thanks for that summary, Bingley. I think most of us who have gone through similar training can relate to a lot of what you noticed. I think CERT is a gateway, a stepping stone. It's like Emergency Response 101 that everyone needs to take to graduate, and for those who are more interested and want to "major" in it, there are always more in depth classes/experiences out there afterwards.

And even in the same city, I'm sure that CERT or CERT-like training can vary considerably over time because I suspect that most instructors change every time the courses are offered. Let's face it, not everyone is a good instructor but all it takes is one great one to really make you appreciate the experience (especially if the material is new to you). Or just the luck of who your classmates are can make a huge difference, too.

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#246133 - 05/22/12 02:13 PM Re: CERT Expectations [Re: Arney]
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1576
The people who run CERT here are having us do some of the FEMA web courses. Many of them seem to be concerned more with organization than skills needed in the field. I'm still looking through them:

http://training.fema.gov/IS/crslist.asp?page=2

Anyone doing these, too?

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#246152 - 05/22/12 07:49 PM Re: CERT Expectations [Re: hikermor]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3819
Loc: USA
I've done a number of them and frankly they're lame. But we needed them to maintain our funding. Our Admin committee chair believes that we need to continue getting these to make sure we're covered against lawsuits.

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#246256 - 05/24/12 03:24 AM Re: CERT Expectations [Re: hikermor]
Bill_G Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 06/06/08
Posts: 92
Thanks for the follow-up Bingley. It's become apparent that CERT training is different around the country. We had CPR training, but the end-of-course exercise was no where near as involved as yours.

As far as continuation training, our community holds 2 "exercises"/yr and 2 indoor training sessions. The head of our team has, over the years, gotten the community management involved and supportive of CERT, including a line item in the budget to purchase supplies/equipment. We have 2 trailers that come out for each exercise and/real world situations. One acts as a untility trailer carrying gear, our generator, etc. The larger one acts as the comm center and carries the CERT Team kits (first aid, radios, etc), as well as replacement medical supplies, hard hats, etc. Prior to an exercise/actual event (likely a hurricane) these are prepositioned near the community center and chained down, ready for us when needed. The last indoor training involved CPR, a review of the first aid kits, and a couple of stations including infection control and bandaging.

I have my ham license, so I can fill any team position since I'm a trained CERT person. I have taken IS100 and will likely take more FEMA courses as time goes by. I agree with chaosmagnet about them being "lame." Not the most challenging courses. Just takes time.

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#246361 - 05/28/12 12:51 AM Re: CERT Expectations [Re: hikermor]
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1576
Forgot to mention -- one thing that bugged me about my CERT course was the small-town mentality that surfaced from time to time: "We've gotta be careful of outsiders coming to our town off the highway exit." No kidding -- one of the instructors said something to this effect. I wonder what makes the crimes committed by local residents more acceptable than those committed by these highway travelers. Not that any of this is a concern of CERT. On the other hand, I was impressed they included someone to play a lost foreign tourist during the disaster simulation.

I guess I'll do a the FEMA course to see how lame it is. The local CERT office wants us to go through them, probably partly for the legal reasons, but also partly to keep us occupied while providing us with some sort of continuing training. I really would prefer a lot more hands-on stuff or disaster simulations.

My location is trying to solve two problems, among others: (1) how to equip the teams (now that we're out of grant money, we don't have the CERT kit/bag to take home); (2) how to maintain communication after the lines go down (it looks like quite a few people want to get their HAM license). Also, I am getting the feeling CERT's role in disaster management may be somewhat undefined. There is a concern that other responders/agencies won't know what CERT is. This seems like an organizational problem that shouldn't be too hard to solve, so what's the hold up?

We do have a trailer, like Bill's team. But the trailer gear seems more oriented towards teaching. We are talking about getting team gear. I'm a bit miffed that the previous CERT teams have mostly disappeared, taking their govt-funded kits with them. They should really return this stuff if they want to leave.

I'm looking for further training opportunities. I'm finishing the Red Cross First Aid/CPR/AED course for professional rescuers. I'm going to do wilderness first aid. I can do an EMT course, but I don't know anything about it. Is the information generally applicable (like first aid), or do I pretty much need to be around an ambulance to make use of the knowledge taught in such a course?

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#246364 - 05/28/12 02:32 PM Re: CERT Expectations [Re: Bingley]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
I'm a bit miffed that the previous CERT teams have mostly disappeared, taking their govt-funded kits with them. They should really return this stuff if they want to leave.

[/quote]The philosophy in my area is a it different. Our instructor mentioned that they were in "catch and release" mode - train people, give them some equipment and they will be able to assist in a big disaster. They are thinking about civilian aid during a major disaster (like a severe earthquake) when the pros are overwhelmed and local amateur efforts are the only assistance available for many victims.

I can't say I was impressed with the gear provided. We got a rather small backpack, a cheap hard hat (more useful for identification than for protection), a high visibility vest (good item!, one cheap disposable mask (not even N95), and a decent pair of gloves. Most ludicrous of all was a clunky incandescent D-cell flashlight with cheap alkaline batteries (a sure leakomatic). My second string EDC is better than that.

I have done some mild upgrades to the equipment, providing a chin strap for the helmet, which will be good for identification, at least. I will also bring a personal helmet if I am in a situation where I need decent pro. I also scrapped up some real N95 masks and stuck them in the pack. We do have annual training exercises and I plan to attend.


Edited by hikermor (05/28/12 02:33 PM)
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

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#246366 - 05/28/12 03:05 PM Re: CERT Expectations [Re: hikermor]
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1576
Originally Posted By: hikermor
The philosophy in my area is a it different. Our instructor mentioned that they were in "catch and release" mode - train people, give them some equipment and they will be able to assist in a big disaster. They are thinking about civilian aid during a major disaster (like a severe earthquake) when the pros are overwhelmed and local amateur efforts are the only assistance available for many victims.


This is interesting. Here they are adamant that we are not to do anything without being activated. In other words, we have to receive an order as a team before we can do anything. During the course, they were emphatic that we cannot self-deploy. (I assume the reasons were as much legal as logistical.) So the catch-and-release model would probably be totally out under this command structure.

Also, apparently one team was composed of college students from a fraternity. I guess once they graduated and moved away, the gear disappeared with them. I only hope they'll get involved in the CERT of their new locations.

The local office of emergency management tries to stay in touch with all CERT teams, but some have dwindled to just one person, and some team leaders have gone incommunicado or disappeared, and consequently they have been replaced.

I agree with you about the gear. I do feel that if we're willing to put in the time and possibly put ourselves in the way of danger, they should outfit us, preferably with decent gear. Each team member needs his/her own backpack with stuff. But each team should also have some gear, too, especially if we're expected to do cribbage and such. Don't we need our own water supply & food as well?

The kit I trained with had the same stuff you complain about: subpar hardhat, flimsy mask & goggles, dated flashlights, debilitatingly oversized gloves, not to mention the lack of a real compass and a knife. On the other hand, I did notice improvement from one generation of gear to the next, so some people are working on this. The newer backpacks, for example, are more efficient than the older style. (Or at least they look more efficient. I trained with the older one.)

One thing I do know: I need to add a belt-mounted small fixed blade. I ended up using my folder a lot, and it's a pain to draw, open, use, then close and "reholster" every other minute.

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#246438 - 05/30/12 02:33 PM Re: CERT Expectations [Re: Bingley]
paramedicpete Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1920
Loc: Frederick, Maryland
My comments here are my own and are not reflective of any official stance by Emergency Management. I have posted before regarding the role of CERT and my limited expectations of utilizing CERT resources. I would view CERT as a community/neighborhood effort to help out neighbors immediately after a major event which may overwhelm First Responders in accessing your neighborhood.

Pete

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#246439 - 05/30/12 02:46 PM Re: CERT Expectations [Re: paramedicpete]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3819
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: paramedicpete
My comments here are my own and are not reflective of any official stance by Emergency Management. I have posted before regarding the role of CERT and my limited expectations of utilizing CERT resources. I would view CERT as a community/neighborhood effort to help out neighbors immediately after a major event which may overwhelm First Responders in accessing your neighborhood.


As you say, working on our own to provide assistance to our neighbors after a disaster is a big part of our mission. A second part of our mission is to provide a trained force of volunteers to supplement first responders, such as for search efforts and operating shelters.

Another big part of our mission is to conduct training and outreach to help our neighbors prepare for disaster, and so lessen their reliance on first responders.

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#246440 - 05/30/12 02:54 PM Re: CERT Expectations [Re: chaosmagnet]
paramedicpete Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1920
Loc: Frederick, Maryland
Quote:
A second part of our mission is to provide a trained force of volunteers to supplement first responders, such as for search efforts


The problem I have with any utilization as a supportive supplement to search and rescue operations, is I have no idea if you really have the necessary training, equipment and physical stamina to be of benefit and not a liability. For example there are Firefighters that I would be hesitant to utilize because they do not have the proper training. At best I might use them to move rubble piles, haul equipment, check buildings/homes that have no apparent damage, but I will not put them into situations for which they do not have proper training, to do so is asking for injuries or worse. To feel secure in utilizing personnel in an urban/suburban environment post event, I would want to make sure they have at least the minimum amount of training that is expected of our personnel. At minimum, this includes Firefighter I (108 hrs), First Responder (40hrs), Rescue Technician (27hrs), Structural Collapse Technician (80hrs) plus all of the various FEMA ICS (100, 200, etc.) courses. These courses along with at least quarterly training and an annual medical clearance (complete physical including stress test and N95 fit test) are required to ensure the individual can function and not be a liability. In my justification, all team members are volunteer (we have career members, but as part of the team, they do so as volunteers) and it can be a challenge to recruit and retain members for the once or twice in a lifetime call. Fortunately, we also perform water and mountain rescues, of which we get enough to hold onto members.

Pete

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