Thinking more upon it I am wondering what possible occurrence's could lead to one losing every piece of gear but their PSK and knife while On foot?

Wandering off from camp for what ever reason is just way tooo....Simple? When dealing with people who put their mind to making a PSK and picking a Knife and Considering preparations for survival why would one such individual Not take some form of gear with them? If you Worry about survival enough to make a PSK wouldnt your first understandment is wandering off from camp without proper gear can result in what your preparing for and attempting to avoid?

The only other situations I can Think about is Encountering a Wild animal and using pack to distract it, falling into water, Falling down large hill.

Any Ideas on this?

Sure, a fall could separate you from your pack. You might drop it if menaced by a bear. Certainly when traveling by boat it's easy to envision the scenario.

I guess a simple one would be leaving camp to "use the facilities". Especially at night it's easy to get lost. But I only walked 50 feet! you say. Just backtrack. Except it's dark and you walked the wrong direction. And since you're sure you're close you keep walking...and walking...and walking.

Of course, we're all too smart for that.

I remember reading a story about a couple of college age adults who hiked to top of a cliff they intended to camp near over-night, and then take the return hike back down in the morning.

They get all the way to the top and decide to take their bags off, sit down, and enjoy the sunset. One guy accidentally got his foot hung up in the strap of another guy's bag. Not realizing it, when he got up, his foot flung the bag over the side of the mountain. Unfortunately, loosing all his buddies gear.

Luckily for them, it was only an inconvenience. However, something like that could easily take a turn for the worst.

The basic idea behind a small PSK (like the candy tin versions) is that it should be something small and light enough that it's always on your person. That way, if you do somehow loose your pack, you've got something. I mean, a tiny knife and a few matches is better than no knife and no fire-starting gear.

Personally, I don't carry one (as I feel my EDC is substantial enough with significant redundancy). However, I think it's a sound idea for a lot of people. Kids and teens especially. They might leave their bag behind, they might forget to take their pocketknife and fire-starting gear, they might lose their PSK out of their pocket....but the chances of all three happening are much slimmer than the chances of one or even two happening.

I think this highlights the difference between survival kit and being properly equipped in my mind. On a day hike, being properly equipped might mean having a survival bag (or whatever) in your rucksack in case of a problem. The survival kit is what you have when you lose your bag.

Losing the majority of your kit is a rarity, and I think the most likely situations are covered here already.

I would point out that a lot of our survival planning seems to assume we are mobile. If we lose that mobility you don't need to be very far away from your kit to not be able to reach it - a relative of mine broke her leg badly by slipping on some wet grass a few years back - happily there were passers by to help her, but she struggled to cover any distance before they got to her. In the dark and wet....I think a whistle, light and space blanket might make all the difference in your pocket

There is still another way to look at it
You may not even lose your bag to need the PSK

It happened several times that someone is stranded and the stuff in their bag is consumed before they are found. It is a relief that they still have something else (the PSK)

A few decades ago, I used to drive a motorbike. It didnt have a fuel gauge , but rather a valve under the fuel tank. In position zero it was closed. in position 1, the engine has access to about 90% of fuel in the tank. When motorbike engine shuts down for lack of fuel. I twist the valve to position 2 to access the last 10% of fuel and head directly towards a gas station.

So, a PSK can help you if your main supplies run out, and give you "another chance".

I spent a couple of fairly rough days looking (successfully, as it turned out) for a young lady who had been collecting firewood for her group's picnic campfire. We found her several miles and a few thousand feet below her point last seen after an extremely dark and stormy night had passed. She did not have her pack, or much of anything else with her.

one could easily lose their pack in a stream crossing gone bad, or in exiting a helicopter/plane "hard landing". Firefighters retreating from a flareup have been known (rightly) to jettison all their gear

Good points! Another reason to carry a kit that fits in your pocket.

A common scenario we hear about is the lost hunter. They get so focused on following their quarry, that they fail to pay attention to their surroundings and end up lost. Ditto the firewood gatherer, washroom seeker, photographer......

I'd argue that the same thing could happen pretty easily to someone responding to a child. "Hey mom, come see this!" or the sound of your child in distress in the distance, could turn into an unexpected ramble away from camp, and that could easily end up with someone becoming seperated from their pack.

From personal experiences:
1) Thrown from a horse on a hunting trip. Horse ran off with everything I didn't have in my pocket or on my belt.
2) I got bounced out of a raft in white water and my survival kit (in a waist/fanny type pack) got caught in a snag preventing me from getting back in the raft. I had to ditch it or drown.

Lessons learned: 1)PSP UNDER an undershirt (neck wallet) or in pants pocket. 2) Shoot all horses, and walk.

Read about folks who've hiked the Continental Divide. There was the fellow who took a night stroll to go water the flowers and couldn't find his way back to his tent in the dark.

He spent a very cold night waiting for sunrise.

Some examples:

- This guy was trapped under a flipped ATV in cold weather and could only grasp gear that was in immediate reach.

- This guy was caught in an avalanche and had his pack stripped from his body in the tumble.

- I don't have any links but I have read about a few incidents where people have wrecked their cars over an embankment, been trapped/injured, and could only get to equipment that was in immediate reach.

- As I have posted before, my Wilderness EMT instructor works seasonally for a group that does jungle expeditions. His boss was on one such expedition in the Amazon when he needed to step into the bush for '#2 time'. He left his backpack with the group, went off-trail for a ways to take care of business... and became completely disoriented. He wound up being lost in the jungle with almost no gear for 3 days. Miraculously while wandering around he bumped into a military group and they saved him, no joke. Company policy now calls for a simple belt system with a survival pouch & water bottle attached. If you leave the pack, the belt rig must be on you. This goes for everyone on the trip, both employees and clients.

One of the philosophies that I apply is that "if it isn't on you, you don't really have it."

I have seen packs go to the bottom of the ocean, fall of cliffs, and much more.

There are literally thousands of reasons or situations that can separate you from your pack. warm day you sit down on a log drop your pack, only to realize that there is a bee or wasp nest in the tree. (yes I have seen that one). You sit down keep your pack on you this time, and start to eat a snack, next thing you know a brown bear decides he wants that snack. dropping your heavy bag will be the first thing you do just to lighten your load.

getting separated from your backpack, car, ATV, or RV. is always a great possibility. I personally used to have concerns about loosing my truck to a river or lake, knowing that in my truck was where I kept all of my gear for survival or emergencies.


Often I get heckled for the gear I carry on me. But when you see a person have to ditch from a sea kayak and only able to keep with them what is on them,, you start to understand.

Chisel makes a valid point - the PSK can act as redundancy to stop things becoming a disaster - backup for a broken compass or whatever

Oops, posted too quickly - the other point I wanted to make was that the low cost and burden of a PSK means it is worth having even when the odds against needing it seem astronomical. A SAK, Dougs PSP and a Heatsheet will fit in a pocket, weigh very little and give a whole lot of insurance

What can separate us from our gear?

Water crossings. On deep water crossings, I frequently take my pack off and lay it across my shoulders. If I go down, I don't want to be clipped in, and if it's deep, I don't want my gear getting wet.

Water gathering. I'm "just" going down to the stream to fetch a pot of water. My that stream bank is really sliiiiiiiiiiiiipery!

Nature calls as alluded to earlier.

Stargazing. You laugh, but how many people carry their pack to go out in the middle of the meadow to look up?

Wood gathering for a campfire. Whoa! A perfect pile of wood is just down this "little" drop offffffffffffff... [thud]

Bear bagging. You're supposed to go 100 yards away from camp, right? Well, who's going to carry their gear for "only" 100 yards. What could happen?

With respect to those last several, basically any little camp errand where you believe you'll "only be gone a minute," particularly at night. I've had trouble getting back to my camp after gathering water. The one smart thing I did was put a retroreflective strip on the top compartment of my pack. I couldn't find my camp, but then my headlamp hit the reflective strip, and I was home free. Phew!

HJ

Leaving a light going at my campsite has saved me any number of false steps and related unpleasantness. Even a small LED keychain flashlight can be enough if you can leave it on and clipped in a visible location while stepping away.

What can separate us from our gear?

Am I missing something or is it politically incorrect to discuss “THE HUMAN FACTOR”?

I will make a guess that more gear, camps, packs, vehicles, horses, equipment, stashes, etc go missing by THEFT than all of the other causes together.

On the thread “Urban Carry Recommendation” I waited thru 45 replies to see which would be more popular – 9mm, .40s&w, .38 Special or OC Spray. Not one entry.

I think the nature of the board and maybe some of the people makes it uncomfortable for them to discuss such things openly, or even at all.

Human nature dictates that people gravitate toward getting comfortable and reverting to how they behave at home. One solution to the issue of losing gear is to make carrying essential gear a way of life, your everyday life. For example, I carry a man bag even at home. I work at home and my cell phone needs to be on me always. My point is it actually feels unusual for me not to carry my man bag, which includes basic survival gear.

...because talking about firearms on this site has to be done in such a touchy-feely manner that it's better just to go to another forum

Theft as a factor probably diminishes as you get deeper into the woods. Once you are beyond the reach of wheeled vehicles and crowds, it isn't a significant problem.

I agree with this statement. The main issue I have seen with theft is cars getting broken into at trailheads, while the owners are back in the woods. These tend to be smash and grab thefts, where the thieves are mostly interested in high value items that can be readily fenced.

Edit: My observation is that most people who would be inclined to steal your gear are generally a pretty lazy bunch. They aren't the sort of folks who are likely to walk more than a few yards from their vehicle and beer supply.

I don't think caliber, or for that matter gun possession, matters a whole lot when it comes to theft, which I understand as stealing without drawing the attention of others. In fact, guns, being valuable, can often be the target of a thief. There is nothing you can do about theft if you can't or don't notice it. Likewise, a skilled burglar can enter and leave your house without getting noticed, sometimes with you sleeping soundly through it.

Regrettably (or maybe not so regrettably?), because of the easy access to firearms, the American criminal no longer even tries to perfect or even acquire these Old World skills: pickpocketing, long cons, cat burglaries, etc. Why take years to train under a possibly exploitative and abusive master who always demands a cut, when you can just rob someone by force with a gun and keep all the profit yourself? You may not even be able to get these skills unless you go abroad. That's just not worth it.

As moderator, I would encourage people to stay on topic. While political-social critique is not strictly prohibited, that which verges on political speech is.

HJ

For brick and mortar breed filth and crime,
With a pulse of evil that throbs and beats;
And men are withered before their prime
By the curse paved in with the lanes and streets.

And lungs are poisoned and shoulders bowed,
In the smothering reek of mill and mine;
And Death stalks in on the struggling crowd—
But he shuns the shadow of oak and pine.

NESSMUK.

That's been my observation too. At trailheads and campgrounds, I worry some, but in the backcountry, not at all.

Of the reasons people get separated from their gear in the backcountry, human action ranks very far down on the list.

HJ

There are lots of scenarios that can "separate" you from your backpack. Being pinned under a boulder is one of them

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYrqs3wh3QQ

Although this guy may not have survived with a PSK alone and was lucky to have met the other backpacker , but the sudden unexpected mishap that happened to him shows us how ANYTHING can happen while outdoors and you find yourself unable to access your bag even if it was a few yards away from you.

It is very possible that a guy like this one goes to have a leak at midnight, gets attacked by a bear or something or breaks an ankle and gets injured or disoriented in the dark , and has to wait till morning to see his way back to camp. Not a bad idea to wear a fanny pack type of PSK when moving around at night.

Thats where a hanging lantern or glowstick marking camp is a big help in finding your way back. Or going BEFORE you crawl in your bag for the night. But who does that anymore? Or thinks to take even an altoids tin on a bathroom run?

It shouldn't be. Firearms are survival tools as well. It's a shame that the rampant paranoia here makes the subject verbotten. For many of us here they are EDC. I would no more leave home without my >45 than my wallet, cell, knife and lighter.

But I still take my pack and boots into my tent at night, no matter how remote, hiker. I have heard of animals hauling off a boot leaving one lonely one behind.

Raising my hand quietly from the back of the room.

Yes Jac?

I never discuss or even follow politics. And if I remember correctly Mr. Ritter also carries. A Glock 22 I think. And i seem to recall years ago, mention of an AR-15 in his planes gear. Though I could be wrong. I have looked at so many sites over the years. To me a firearm is simply another tool. I am not a gun nut, but I do enjoy them. If you wish to ban me, that is up to you and I encourage you to do what you feel is right or your duty. Respectfully, SD.

Um.. I do.

lol. Hardly surprising that you would.

For me, I just see it at 2:00 A.M: Now, where did I leave that dag blasted Altoids tin? I can't "go" until I find it... lol.

HJ

At my age I am happy to get my boots on without soiling myself. I wear a Scottevest windbreaker year 'round, using it as my outer shell in cold weather. I like that I can load it up with the essentials and not even have to think about grabbing anything else when I leave my tent.

The few times I've helped-out with SAR where the target had no gear were either starting-out unprepared (just going on a day hike/trip), getting turned-around answering the call of nature, or taking a wrong turn coming back from visiting another campsite. Discouragingly, alcohol was often involved in the latter case.

And you don't need to be in the middle of the back-country to get lost. The places where I've helped-out all had established trail systems and established, communal campsites. A few wrong turns without noticing and a lack of sufficient training or experience to stay put once you realize your lost can make for a cold, damp night under the stars.

I'll also admit that in my pre survival-minded days I managed to lose my tent after watering the flowers. The problem is that by the time you realize you are lost you can't even be sure which direction is which. I was fortunate that there was a stream nearby I could follow back to the trail and then from there found my way back to camp. Thereafter I never wander out of view of my tent to take care of business, unless I'm at a communal campsite with an established latrine. I figure 50' from my campsite might be smack in the middle of where the next fellow might setup camp, so why bother? The resident animals don't.

LOL!! A little OCD, I suspect.

I have a little fanny pack to trips away from camp...and now know to " leave a light on" in camp so I can find it at night.

Heres a real senario that happened to someone I know.

He was on a fishing trip with about 12 people. During that trip they were based out of a campsite accesible only by the boats down the lake from the launch. The other persons reffered to the campsite as being on an "island". However (unknown to him) the "island" was really a penninsula with connection to the main land. In the late evening he decided to explore the "island" and left camp, wanting to tour the shoreline of the island before dark.
He walked along the shore for longer than he though normal, never reaching his start point and darkness was now falling. He decided to cut back across the island away from the shore. At this time he had actually crossed onto the mainland, so when he thought he was cutting overland across the island he was actually headed away from the shoreline in the oppoosite direction and deeper inland. After about a half hour of walking he knew something was wrong and started to call for help. His calls went unanswered. At this point he was totally lost, and confused. He still believed he was on an island and even though he had estimated the size of the area to be fairly small he couldint figure out why he was totally lost. He realized he was just getting more lost.

Meanwhile it was now completely dark and everyone at camp realized he wasin't back and went into the woods to look for him. After a few minutes they called off the search, realizing that a search at night was a bad idea.

Meanwhile my friend had a pocket knife and a lighter and the clothes on his back. He may have had a few other items but definetly not a PSK. The clothes he was wearing were probably jeans and a hooded cotton sweatshirt (judging from what he usually wears). He made a fire to stay warm and he told me it was hard to keep going and he grew frightened being alone in the woods without a strong fire and no shelter.

In the morning he managed to find his way back to shore several KMs down the lake from the campsite and was spotted by members of the party on their boat. The whole incident lasted less than 16 hours and ended well, but goes to show how it is possible to get lost and seperated from your gear even when you had the best intentions. In this case my friend believed he was on an island of no more than a few hundered meters across and therefore had no reason to anticipate getting lost.

My apologies. I must have misunderstood.

LOL. I would expect no less from you, jac. As I have said, you are a very savvy prepper. I'll probably take my fanny pack after this thread, though I have never had a problem finding my way back. That said I will mow probably get lost and have to huddle in a ball to try and stay warm. Thanks jac. Always a pleasure.

Not a problem Jim. I would be the first to encourage you.

Great story Matt, very instructive. Welcome to ETS.

losing the gear is the one survival situation i do prepare for.thats what the PFD with the ditch kit is all about.
going overboard from the canoe is a very remote disaster but treading water while the boat and pack are driven down wind would mean at the least many days with out food or shelter waiting for help.the kit however has all i need to stay safe and fed for at least a week.the other way to loose the gear is a fall on the portage trail so the PFD go's with me on every trip back and forth these days.by fall i mean busting something and not being able to get back to the packs at the other end of the carry.i bushwhack and go into some remote places but some of the portages are well used.


good---



bad---



unused at the start of a bushwack to whats called a Primitive Management Area. you need a permit to get in and camp and only one is given out so you will be alone...i need to invest in a PLB.....

Excellent example.

One of the worst "boo boos" I've ever done is when I was out X-Country skiing. I didn't have a map (mistake #1), but I had seen a map and knew that a road cut across my path. So, I thought I'd ski a compass bearing. I'd hit the road, turn left to the main road, and follow the main road back to camp.

Except that they don't plow that road in winter. I skied right over the road without knowing it. I kept looking at my watch thinking "why the heck haven't I reached that road yet?" Finally, it was getting dark and the people I was with were starting to get scared. Using a compass bearing, we turned toward the main road. We did get to the road, and we even got picked up by someone who kindly gave us a lift back to camp.

Moral(s) of the story:
-Always carry your survival gear
-A map is survival gear. Not getting lost can prevent a whole lot of survival situations.
-Be careful of assumptions about terrain. If it ain't adding up, then you might just want to abort a loop trip and return the way you came. Retracing your steps isn't "admitting defeat;" it's a smart survival technique.
-Always establish a turn around or "bail out" time.
-Leave word at camp of where you're going, what route you'll take, and when you'll return.

HJ

I think that about hits the nail on the head about getting lost.

Situations where you violently have your pack torn off your back or situations where you suddenly end up lost or seperated are going to be very rare (for most of us). More commonly situations will develop and become the result of the sum of various factors.

I think it was one of iawoodsman's videos on youtube where he states that you don't just become lost. It might take hours for a situation to develop before you realize you are lost. It will always be the situation you didn't plan for that takes you by suprise, unfortunetly it is impossible to plan for situations you never expect to happen or believe can't happen (getting lost on an "island").

I think people have to be realistic about what they carry to encourage a high probability of carry. In all honesty I rarely carry my tobacco based survival tin because I find the size and shape awkward. For that matter looking at senarios that are most common much of the contents are probably uselss unless I go very deep into remote wilderness. When conducting outdoor activities EDCing high quality and sturdy tools and signaling devices might be more useful. In alot of the senarios I read about people get turned around and lost within a few hundered meters or a few KMs of other humans. EDCing something like a penflare in the woods might get a response from other humans that allows you to self-rescue before ever getting "lost".

Just thoughts...

HJ [/quote]

I think it was one of iawoodsman's videos on youtube where he states that you don't just become lost. It might take hours for a situation to develop before you realize you are lost. It will always be the situation you didn't plan for that takes you by suprise, unfortunetly it is impossible to plan for situations you never expect to happen or believe can't happen (getting lost on an "island").

[/quote]

I thought it was iawoodsman who said on one of the other forums that he keeps his PSK in his pack because he's NEVER lost his pack? Someone pointed out (very gently) that he thought it defeated the purpose of carrying a PSK. Woodsman's PSK I think was in a smaller bag that he could pull out of the larger pack. Or am I confusing him with someone else?

You maybe right. I seem to remember the discussion on usa bushcraft forum. Not carrying survival gear on the person isin't a great idea IMO; however I agree with his theory on how many situations can develop over a longer period of time ie not getting lost when you weren't a second ago. Obviously not the cash for plane crashes, bear attacks or upset canoes.

EDIT:
Here is the dicussion you mention kathy.
http://bushcraftusa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16229
Seems at the posting date he carried it in his pack and moved the psk to belt or pocket once at camp. Perhaps that changed after a discussion but I didn't go through the thread to check.

Yes, that was the site. Thanks very much. I roam around a lot and don't register, so sometimes forget where I've been.

People sometimes don't realize how different even familiar terrain can be when covered with snow. It is real easy to do what you did, and ski right across a road without realizing it. However, you recognized you had a problem while you were still in a position to do something about it. Before it was totally dark, and everyone in the group was exhausted. And you had a compass and knew how to use it.

Good on you!

Yes!

Virtually every time I have become lost, it was because I didn't listen (until late in the game) to that little voice that says "something's just not right here!" And when I do tune into that little voice, it has almost always saves me a lot of grief. And how often a short back track, even uphill when you are tired, is way better than pushing on, hoping things will somehow sort themselves out!

I think this site should have a policy of not discussing firearms at all. It gets annoying when a seemingly useful discussion gets locked because somebody didn't tiptoe in the correct manner with respect to firearms.

No need to remind me, I'm obviously a guest here. I still have an opinion about what's appropriate. While obviously it's your site, it's also part of my experience in my life, and I have contributed a significant amount of intellectual property here.

I come in peace. -ireckon

IMHO, I think we mostly do a good job around here. Other than the odd blip, we've had many gun discussions that are quite interesting. I've learned to appreciate them and their place in preps. I've had people suggest that I carry one, and when I ask for suggestions about EDC, PSK, BOB, etc.... I expect it to come up. The key for me is that I've never felt like I had to defend myself as to why I don't carry one. As a non-gun owner, I really appreciate that respect.

Deal!!

Not to start a discussion on the politics but not to mention being in Canada, we don't have the option to carry anyways.

How did we go from losing our gear to a firearms discussion?

I think it's fair to say, whenever someone with gear gets separated from it accidentally, they feel pretty stupid about it afterwards. If we were smart, it'd never happen.

wandering off is one of the few problems we have with lost people here in Minnesota.no mountains or deserts of course but the forests sort of all look the same with no real high places to get up and look around,the woods are deep in places with no real view of where your going.there are some very old over grown logging roads from the horse drawn wagon era and people get on those thinking they will lead someplace but they just end up deeper in the woods.i have never been lost but did get out of the canoe to look for a portage and by the time i wandered back and forth looking for a path,some are nothing more than game trails,i came back to the lake by just going down hill and found that i was 100's of yards from where i left the canoe.



Hmmmmmm..i don't remember pushing thru this thicket on the way in.
maybe if i walk over the other way around it i'll get back to camp before this rain comes on------



this is not right at all!!..i'll pick up the pace and trot thru here..i have to be close by now..puff--puff-puff----

LOL. Good one. Great pics. I've done a lil SAR and in the nearest major city there are mountains nearby. Every year people get lost on the main one. I'm always like, How? See all that glitter? Thats the city. It's dark? Look at that glow below you. That's the city. WALK DOWN HILL! It makes one wonder.

I've done a lot of SAR centered on Tucson, AZ, which is basically surrounded by mountains. Especially in the Santa Catalinas, I have seen the city lights casting shadows at night. However, one of the best and easiest ways to get hopelessly lost and tangled up in some very rough country is to blindly strike out for those city lights and walk downhill. We have pulled dozens of people (and sometimes their corpses) out of those hills who attempted just that without knowledge of the country or a decent map.

I know this general situation is repeated in many locales around the world. It is one thing to see where you want to go, and another thing to be able to get there.

This soloist got injured away from his pack, which had his cellphone. Though he may not have gotten cell service anyway, he was stuck with whatever he had on his person at the time. This is why I keep my PLB in a waist pouch, not in my backpack.

It was blundering into some recently deposited silt in Paria Canyon (after an 18hour layup due to a pretty decent storm) with the missus and seriously considering ditching both our packs (which were packed to the gunnels with survival gear) as we were sinking rapidly ,that I suddenly realised that I had put all my eggs in one basket. I did have a small folding blade in my pocket but other than that it was all in our packs.

Since then I have been a keen practitioner of keeping a psk on me when out and about. Fortunately, I was able to learn from my mistake.

Moab

The odds are that your packs are at least as buoyant as you are, unless they are loaded with scrap iron and water. I have been in one situation where an on body psk does make sense - flying on a relatively small charter aircraft. In most of these, your pack, even a small day pack is placed in a cargo compartment. in case of an unplanned landing and exit, you would have only on body items for immediate use. I usually just beefed up my EDC

The survival situation I mentioned in my thread came about because I had to ditch my gear and was prevented from retrieving it. The best laid plans and all that. One reason an on the body PSK is so important. As well as EDC and spare gear in one's pockets.

This should be a cardinal rule!

Probably true, although at the time both hands were fully engaged in getting out of the silt and the packs were dragging us down faster into the river, we came pretty close to going under and that was when they were nearly jettisoned. Floating would have been fine but it was the dragging under that had my attention!

It certainly focuses the mind when experiencing something like this, and finding ETS and all the contributors has improved my skills/kit selection - which can only be a good thing.

ATB
Moab

On one trip in the West Fork of Oak Creek Canyon, we were confronted with about a 300 yard stretch where swimming was the only feasible option. After waterproofing critical gear (like sleeping bags) and emptying water bottles, etc, our packs (the classic external frame Keltys) were merrily bobbing along, actually serving as impromptu floatation devices, while we thrashed downstream. That, of course, was clear mountain spring water, not silt, which is truly the invention of the devil.

When sea kayaking, or skiffing through surf, I use a large dry bag with shoulder straps and waist belt, and it floats at least as well as I do.

This story (part 1, part 2) is from 2010 but I just now found it. Great example of surviving on your 1st-line gear after losing your main equipment.

'Nelson had stowed his food supplies, extra clothing, camping equipment and satellite phone among the boat’s cargo. A knife, some snare wire, a signal mirror, a can of highly-flammable Sterno, a space blanket, a tincture of iodine, three fishing lures and some fishing line were the only items he had on his body. His clothing included a warm shirt, a pair of water-resistant dry pants, good boots and his life jacket.

“The most important thing you need to remember about survival gear is that it’s not survival gear if it’s not on your body,” he said.'

Wow, that's an awesome read, Glock-A-Roo! Super story. The guy was smart, resourceful and very lucky! Obviously you make your own luck to a degree but had those European canoers not come by when they did who knows what would have happened.

Interesting too some of his comments. I see he found the space blanket to be useless and that's my take, at least on the cheapest ones. They will keep you dry- that's a huge plus- and they're good reflectors but not at all warm. Since they pack so small I still think they're useful to have but I'm under no illusions that they're gonna keep me warm like my Wiggy's bag would. I missed in the article just how he was carrying the gear he did manage to keep. With a canoe you have special advantages but special dangers, too. Since you're moving on water you can carry heavier stuff easily, but it's easy to get separated from your boat in fast water, especially when you're alone. And any pack you wear can increase your risk of drowning or getting hung up on something if ejected.

Today I was chatting with my doctor and he told me about a situation he got into that is in line with this thread.

Doc and his brother were on a big-time hunting trip in Canada in September, an area accessible only by bush plane. In the afternoon they were a few miles from basecamp and a member of the group bagged an animal. The guides were helping with the processing and told Doc and his brother that unless they wanted to stand around for the next 2 hours, they should just go on back to basecamp. "Which way is it?" they asked, and the guide pointed "that way". So they began walking along the treeless, nondescript rolling terrain with clear visibility.

Then the clouds & fog rolled in. They got disoriented. Where was the GPS & compass? Back at basecamp. Doc said it felt like they had walked forever, and he knew there was no major road or settlement for at least 100 miles in any direction. He was scared.

By a special stroke of luck Doc saw what he thought was a rockpile where he had hung out the previous day. Turned out he was right, and from there they made it to basecamp.

In addition to sussing out my 1st/2nd/3rd line loadouts, I think I'd try a different guide next time.

Do an outdoor trip without a guide, and one will probably pay more attention to the surroundings and remain oriented. If at all possible, never rely on some one else for directions.

Take responsibility, not a guide.

You know, I bet the doctor never thought of that. I'll have to tell him before he cuts into another patient on the operating table.

Think about it, had those items been in the pocket where they belong 24/7 when camping, the situation would not have been a situation. Just a fun stroll in the forest.

Just a tangent observation: Land navigation is probably the most important outdoor skilll in keep a situation from becoming a situation. Unfortunately, my experience has shown that even "experienced" guides end up zigging when they should be zagging. Sometimes egregiously.

Never assume that anybody else can find their way without glowing "exit" signs, and carry your own navigation kit.