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#236405 - 11/28/11 07:03 PM Re: A gunfight might not be like you expect it to be [Re: quick_joey_small]
ireckon Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1628
Loc: Northern California
Here's what I've READ about not using sights in a gun, being that I've never been in a gun fight myself. The person in the gun fight does what they're trained to do. If a lot of your training is point shooting, then you probably won't ever use your sights in a fast moving gun fight. Also, even if the cop actually used his sights, his adrenaline may have been so high that he only remembers pulling the gun out and trying to hit the target somehow.

As I imagine a gun fight, aiming my sights is not something I would remember. There's no room for such a memory when the 38 years of my life are flashing before my eyes.

Another thing is that it seems that some people in this thread assume cops are better trained with the use of their guns. I don't know if that's necessarily true. I know a lot of gun owners, and am a member of several gun forums. Everybody I know who carries in public practices their craft ALL THE TIME. They are so paranoid about doing something wrong in public that they aim to do everything perfectly. They're constantly studying their craft.

In contrast, I doubt cops experience the same level of paranoia, and I doubt their training requires the same level of dedication. They must carry because it's their job, but how many cops actually like guns and study all the time? The cop label does not automatically mean higher skill. I would guess law abiding citizens who carry in public tend to have more skill and more knowledge.
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#236411 - 11/28/11 07:56 PM Re: A gunfight might not be like you expect it to be [Re: ireckon]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2184
Loc: Deep south... Carolina
What was that statistic from Vietnam? Something like 10,000 rounds fired for every confirmed kill? Versus 1.8 rounds for the snipers?

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#236456 - 11/29/11 05:03 PM Re: A gunfight might not be like you expect it to be [Re: NightHiker]
Arney Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: NightHiker
There was a FBI study a few years back on instances of law enforcement officers being shot in the line of duty...

I'm curious what time frame that study covers? Since the summary mentions that they started with 800 lethal force situations, it must go back quite far.

As moral beings, it's a good thing that these officers hesitate to use lethal force, unfortunately, in a lethal situation, that can get you killed. But I wonder if the situation has actually been changing in the last decade compared to the report's findings?

I say that because law enforcement has increasingly become "militarized" since 9/11 and the traditional police vs military mindsets are very different. Not only in terms of firepower and tactics, but even the officers themselves have changed. Many vets from Iraq/Afghanistan have joined police forces, and many police officers were called up to deploy, so these officers have combat experience that most officers in the 80's or 90's probably did not experience.

A combination of the "war on terror" and increasingly violent events along our Southern border by Mexican drug cartels, in addition to the wider "war on drugs" seem to have triggered this sea change in American policing. Extra funds devoted to police forces for these purposes have given them the means to buy all kinds of potent weaponry, pay for SWAT teams, pay for more elaborate training, etc. The extreme example is NYC after 9/11 where beat cops were suddenly supplemented with heavily armed officers with helmets, body armor, and automatic weapons openly patrolling public spaces, like busy Grand Central Station and other venues. Another visible example of this change is the increasing use of SWAT teams to serve more and more search or arrest warrants, in scenes reminiscent of soldiers "stacking up" and kicking in doors in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Like that FBI report, the US military noticed a long time ago that a great many soldiers would not fire directly at enemy soldiers. They would not fire their weapons or would deliberately miss. In response, the military devised training methods to try and override that tendency. If more and more of our police officers have had that training, plus actual combat experience, it stands to reason that fewer officers will hesitate to pull the trigger now compared to 10-15 years ago IMHO.

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#236459 - 11/29/11 05:42 PM Re: A gunfight might not be like you expect it to be [Re: Arney]
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1384
Originally Posted By: Arney
I say that because law enforcement has increasingly become "militarized" since 9/11 and the traditional police vs military mindsets are very different. Not only in terms of firepower and tactics, but even the officers themselves have changed. Many vets from Iraq/Afghanistan have joined police forces, and many police officers were called up to deploy, so these officers have combat experience that most officers in the 80's or 90's probably did not experience.


This link that I came across the other day seems relevant:

More Militarized Than the Military

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#238091 - 12/28/11 03:25 AM Re: A gunfight might not be like you expect it to be [Re: quick_joey_small]
gitnready4it Offline
Stranger

Registered: 12/27/11
Posts: 22
I don't know if I would use my sights in a gunfight and I hope I never find out. I do agree with chaosmagnet about the TFO sights for old eyes. I use them on my G23 and love them. I also have a nephew who is a deputy sheriff and I know for a fact that some police officers(not all I'm sure) have far less training than you might expect.
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#238092 - 12/28/11 03:53 AM Re: A gunfight might not be like you expect it to be [Re: quick_joey_small]
LesSnyder Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 1520
Loc: New Port Richey, Fla
just a comment from a competition shooter, and not a real world gunfighter... USE THE SIGHTS...unless you can touch your target...with a weak thumb forward presentation to target, about 1000 muscle memory dry fire draws will produce a natural pointing motion, and allow you to acquire a flash sight picture as the arms are extended


Edited by LesSnyder (12/28/11 03:54 AM)

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#238096 - 12/28/11 10:04 AM Re: A gunfight might not be like you expect it to be [Re: quick_joey_small]
quick_joey_small Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 481
Loc: UK
To me the biggest lesson of the article is;
'gunfights are very rare; even for those who have to run towards, what we'd all run from'.
Is a gun and the training that goes with it really the best use of your resources?
It's a struggle to think of any situation where carrying a gun legally is a disadvantage.
But there are plenty of times (and they are the ones that are probably going to happen) where "I wish I'd spent that time on a first aid course instead of the range" or; "I wish I'd spent that money on a GPS or satellite phone, rather than at the gunshop", might be going through your mind.
Given that time and money are limited; preparing for the unlikely, at the expense of the likely, is a recipe for disaster.
qjs

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#238102 - 12/28/11 03:46 PM Re: A gunfight might not be like you expect it to be [Re: quick_joey_small]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 2927
Loc: USA
The closest thing I've been in to a gunfight was force-on-force training with Simunitions. If you ever have a chance to do this, I would strongly recommend it. In one of the classes I took, the instructors' goal was to push our stress levels up so that we suffered from tunnel vision and auditory exclusion. For most of us in that class it was pretty effective towards those ends.

I'm pleased to report that I did what I was trained to do during the Simunition gunfights: I used precision shooting with the sights at longer distances, flash sight picture at shorter distances, and point shooting at bad breath distance.

For most people, point shooting doesn't work unless you use the correct grip and train to do it.

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#238104 - 12/28/11 04:04 PM Re: A gunfight might not be like you expect it to be [Re: quick_joey_small]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 2927
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: quick_joey_small
Is a gun and the training that goes with it really the best use of your resources?


All of my resources? Of course not. Some of my resources? Sure. You can buy a good defensive pistol for about $600, and spend maybe $1000/year on training and practice, including ammunition, and be well-prepared. I spend and do more because I enjoy competition shooting, but that's a case where my hobby helps me be prepared rather than being preparedness spending.

You don't need a gun until you need it badly. With that said, if your resources are constrained such that you can carry a cellphone or a gun but not both, carry a cellphone.

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#238287 - 12/30/11 07:03 PM Re: A gunfight might not be like you expect it to be [Re: quick_joey_small]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1347
I've never been in a gunfight - and I hope i can still say that at the end of my life. It makes sense to avoid a shootout if possible.

I will point out one thing. You always have the option to lay down covering fire - and then make a quick exit. Force the other guy to get his head down ... and make a break for it. The beauty of this option is that your fire doesn't have to be very accurate - just close enough to your attacker to give him second thoughts.

This isn't going to be effective in all situations.
But it might improve the odds.

Pete2


Edited by Pete (12/30/11 07:03 PM)

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