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#234747 - 10/30/11 12:59 AM Re: A sad story that makes me angry [Re: Phaedrus]
Crowe Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 88

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#234752 - 10/30/11 01:33 AM Re: A sad story that makes me angry [Re: hikermor]
ireckon Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: hikermor
The standard PFDs are bulky and awkward to wear. There are 'working' type PFDs with handy pockets that are somewhat better, but they are not readily available and are a bit pricy. The best compromise is a float coat which works very well when things are a bit nippy out on the water. models with a beaver tail will also do a better job of conserving body heat, a job at which the typical PFD fails miserably. in cold water, a PFD is nothing more than a handy marker for those retrieving bodies.


So, there's no use in wearing a standard PFD in cold water?

=====

It would be good to edit the original post to change the word "fireman" to "officer". I don't see he was a fireman anywhere in any article. This whole time, I had "fireman" in my head because of the original post.
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#234754 - 10/30/11 02:36 AM PFDs save lives in cold water! [Re: hikermor]
AKSAR Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1233
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: hikermor
The standard PFDs are bulky and awkward to wear. There are 'working' type PFDs with handy pockets that are somewhat better, but they are not readily available and are a bit pricy. The best compromise is a float coat which works very well when things are a bit nippy out on the water. models with a beaver tail will also do a better job of conserving body heat, a job at which the typical PFD fails miserably. in cold water, a PFD is nothing more than a handy marker for those retrieving bodies.

WRONG!!!
As the Canadian Dr. Gordon Geisbrecht (aka "Professor Popsicle") has repeatedly demonstrated, with flotation you won't become unconcious from hypothermia in cold water for about an hour. However, swim failure occurs in ~5-15 minutes, and without flotation you will drown at that point. The vast majortiy of "hypothermia" deaths in cold water aren't hypothermia at all. They are simply drownings, from swim failure due to chilling arm and leg muscles. Even with a PFD you can't stay in cold water indefinately, but you can survive at least an hour, and maybe much longer. This greatly increases your chances of being rescued.

Prof. Popsicle has developed the "1-10-1" principle of what happens in cold water immersion:

Cold Shock (gasping,hyperventilation) last about One Minute.

Swim Failure (due to chilling of your arm and leg muscles) in about Ten Minutes. Without a pfd you drown at this point.

Unconscious due to Hypothermia (takes this long for your core to cool) in about One Hour.

See http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/kinrec/about/giesbrecht.html for more information about Dr. Geisbrecht. In particular follow the links to "Cold Water Boot Camp" and to the Discovery Channel Canada link on "Cold Water Survival". Both these have some graphic examples of how long one can survive in cold water WITH A PFD.

For more information on hypothermia, see the current Alaska Cold Injuries Guidelines for EMS (developted in part by Dr. Geisbrecht) at:
http://www.ems.alaska.gov/EMS/documents/AKColdInj2005.pdf

For a recent example of how several girls (wearing PFDs) survived two hours in 40-45 F water see:
http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/kenai-girl-credited-saving-friends-tustumena-lake-accident

Also note that modern PFDs developed for sea kayaking and white water kayaking are very easy and comfortable to wear. For other kinds of boating, the new inflatable PFDs are even less unobtrusive.

There is no longer any excuse for not wearing a PFD!



Edited by AKSAR (10/30/11 02:45 AM)
Edit Reason: fixed link
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#234756 - 10/30/11 03:15 AM Re: PFDs save lives in cold water! [Re: AKSAR]
Doug_Ritter Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/28/01
Posts: 2198
Originally Posted By: AKSAR
Originally Posted By: hikermor
The standard PFDs are bulky and awkward to wear. There are 'working' type PFDs with handy pockets that are somewhat better, but they are not readily available and are a bit pricy. The best compromise is a float coat which works very well when things are a bit nippy out on the water. models with a beaver tail will also do a better job of conserving body heat, a job at which the typical PFD fails miserably. in cold water, a PFD is nothing more than a handy marker for those retrieving bodies.

WRONG!!!
As the Canadian Dr. Gordon Geisbrecht (aka "Professor Popsicle") has repeatedly demonstrated, with flotation you won't become unconcious from hypothermia in cold water for about an hour. However, swim failure occurs in ~5-15 minutes, and without flotation you will drown at that point. The vast majortiy of "hypothermia" deaths in cold water aren't hypothermia at all. They are simply drownings, from swim failure due to chilling arm and leg muscles. Even with a PFD you can't stay in cold water indefinately, but you can survive at least an hour, and maybe much longer. This greatly increases your chances of being rescued.

Prof. Popsicle has developed the "1-10-1" principle of what happens in cold water immersion:

Cold Shock (gasping,hyperventilation) last about One Minute.

Swim Failure (due to chilling of your arm and leg muscles) in about Ten Minutes. Without a pfd you drown at this point.

Unconscious due to Hypothermia (takes this long for your core to cool) in about One Hour.

See http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/kinrec/about/giesbrecht.html for more information about Dr. Geisbrecht. In particular follow the links to "Cold Water Boot Camp" and to the Discovery Channel Canada link on "Cold Water Survival". Both these have some graphic examples of how long one can survive in cold water WITH A PFD.

For more information on hypothermia, see the current Alaska Cold Injuries Guidelines for EMS (developted in part by Dr. Geisbrecht) at:
http://www.ems.alaska.gov/EMS/documents/AKColdInj2005.pdf

For a recent example of how several girls (wearing PFDs) survived two hours in 40-45 F water see:
http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/kenai-girl-credited-saving-friends-tustumena-lake-accident

Also note that modern PFDs developed for sea kayaking and white water kayaking are very easy and comfortable to wear. For other kinds of boating, the new inflatable PFDs are even less unobtrusive.

There is no longer any excuse for not wearing a PFD!



What he said! (Thanks for not having to do all that typing.)
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#234757 - 10/30/11 03:26 AM Re: PFDs save lives in cold water! [Re: Doug_Ritter]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Very interesting, and I stand corrected. Thanks for such a detailed refutation. I would still prefer to be wearing a wet suit if immersed in cold water. The record of survival in our local, rather chilly, waters is rather impressive.
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#234759 - 10/30/11 03:40 AM Re: PFDs save lives in cold water! [Re: Phaedrus]
CANOEDOGS Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 1853
Loc: MINNESOTA
note that my avatar is a PFD with pockets bulging with survival gear.when your on vacation "down south" you can spot the people from Minnesota when they get in the water--"oh wow..it's warm"---

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#234766 - 10/30/11 06:16 AM Re: PFDs save lives in cold water! [Re: Phaedrus]
Mark_M Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 295
Loc: New Jersey
I see a lot of occasional paddlers don't wear PFD's, probably because they aren't comfortable, particularly in warm weather. I sometimes take mine off in flat water to cool down, my thinking is that I can put it on if I go in the drink. It's hard to imagine a situation out in the bay where the dad couldn't get to his vest and put it on. I can't imagine the father didn't have a PFD in the boat, not being out on open water.

Average temps in LI Sound are in the 70's during August. Smithtown Bay would probably be warmer. This past summer was warm. I don't see hypothermia being an immediate threat. Most (all now?) yak's have flotation chambers or Styrofoam so they float when capsized. Why couldn't he hold on to the boat?

As for the sternum-strap whistles, a couple of my day packs have them. REI also sells them as an add-on to your existing pack or vest. I can't find it on their website, but saw them in my local store near the first aid supplies.
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#234767 - 10/30/11 06:32 AM Re: PFDs save lives in cold water! [Re: Phaedrus]
Phaedrus Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 3152
Loc: Big Sky Country
It happened just days ago; one would think the water was probably pretty cold- lord knows it's cold here. A red flag popped up for me in another article when I read "inflatable kayak"...maybe they're fine but it doesn't sound like something I'd paddle around an ocean bay. It puzzles me why he couldn't just hold on to it unless he was too cold.

When I'm out in the boat fishing in the lake, I do occasionally take off my vest or at least unbuckle it in glass-calm flat water. Especially when I'm sitting down. No freak wave could possibly come along and never once in my life have I ever been out in the boat alone. If there's any "chop" at all I have my vest(PFD) on.
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#234768 - 10/30/11 07:06 AM Re: PFDs save lives in cold water! [Re: Phaedrus]
UTAlumnus Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 1019
Loc: East Tennessee near Bristol
From the originally posted article:

Quote:
The widow of an NYPD veteran killed in an August kayaking accident

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#234769 - 10/30/11 08:51 AM Re: PFDs save lives in cold water! [Re: Phaedrus]
Phaedrus Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 3152
Loc: Big Sky Country
Ah, I guess I was just going by the date of the story I read. Doesn't seem it should have been that cold. I wonder what we're not being told?
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