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#233446 - 10/09/11 05:54 PM Re: Video: Cessna 310 Ditching off Hawaii [Re: Doug_Ritter]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
Okay, I was right. I looked up the normal Cessna 310 range and the distance to Hawaii, and they added up the wrong way.

It's a good thing he wasn't carrying passengers!

But what's this about in the report? "A 65-year-old pilot calmly flew his twin engine airplane just inches from the water in the Pacific for more than an hour and a half before landing in the water after realizing he was running out of fuel."

Sue

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#233450 - 10/09/11 06:43 PM Re: Video: Cessna 310 Ditching off Hawaii [Re: Doug_Ritter]
Bill_G Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 06/06/08
Posts: 92
Susan,

This has to do with something called 'ground effect.' Can't get to my flight manuals/books right now, but this Wiki explanation is pretty good. He was doing the right thing at that time.

"As it pertains to fixed wing aircraft, "ground effect" refers to the increased lift and decreased drag that an aircraft airfoil or wing generates when an aircraft is about 1 wingspans length or less over the ground (or surface). This often gives light aircraft the feeling that they are "floating", especially when landing.

When an aircraft is flying at an altitude that is approximately at or below the same distance as the aircraft's wingspan there is, depending on airfoil and aircraft design, an often noticeable ground effect. This is caused primarily by the ground interrupting the wingtip vortices and downwash behind the wing. When a wing is flown very close to the ground, wingtip vortices are unable to form effectively due to the obstruction of the ground. The result is lower induced drag, which increases the speed and lift of the aircraft while it is in the ground effect.

A wing generates lift, in part, due to the difference in air pressure gradients on the wing surfaces: both upper and lower. During normal flight, the upper wing surface experiences reduced static air pressure and the lower surface comparatively higher static pressure, these air pressure differences also accelerate the mass of air downwards. Flying close to a surface increases air pressure on the lower wing surface, (the ram or cushion effect) improving the aircraft lift to drag ratio. As the wing gets lower the ground effect becomes more pronounced. While in the ground effect, the wing will require a lower angle of attack to produce the same amount of lift. If the angle of attack and velocity remain constant, an increase in the lift coefficient will result, accounting for the "floating" effect. Ground effect will also alter thrust versus velocity in that reducing induced drag will require less thrust to maintain velocity.

Low winged aircraft are more affected by ground effect than high wing aircraft. Due to the change in up-wash, down-wash and wingtip vortices there may be errors in the airspeed system while in ground effect due to changes in the local pressure at the static source."


Edited by Bill_G (10/09/11 06:44 PM)

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#233454 - 10/09/11 08:16 PM Re: Video: Cessna 310 Ditching off Hawaii [Re: Doug_Ritter]
PSM Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 77
Loc: Cochise Co., AZ
What Bill_G said plus the wind is slowed near the ground due to drag (hence the waves on water). He may have also been seeking the wind shadow in the lee of the Big Island.

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#233463 - 10/10/11 02:03 AM Re: Video: Cessna 310 Ditching off Hawaii [Re: PSM]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
Okay, thanks for the explanation. I was wondering if he had a water-skier back there that he hadn't mentioned to the Coast Guard...

Sue

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#233479 - 10/10/11 01:57 PM Re: Video: Cessna 310 Ditching off Hawaii [Re: Bill_G]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
The same "ground effect" applies in the water if you are swimming close to the bottom, fluids being fluids after all. A friend tipped me off to this and it helped me pass my Divemaster test in fine style.
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

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#233481 - 10/10/11 02:18 PM Re: Video: Cessna 310 Ditching off Hawaii [Re: hikermor]
Unca_Walt Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/03/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Floriduh
Wonder if he'da made it if he went ground effect from the beginning?

I dunno if I could pay attention that long...

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#233489 - 10/10/11 04:54 PM Re: Video: Cessna 310 Ditching off Hawaii [Re: Unca_Walt]
Bill_G Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 06/06/08
Posts: 92
Originally Posted By: Unca_Walt
Wonder if he'da made it if he went ground effect from the beginning?

I dunno if I could pay attention that long...


That is an interesting thought. Have spent hours low altitude, but that was with a crew and at 400 feet. Gets exciting at 200 feet for any length of time.

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#233597 - 10/12/11 10:46 PM Re: Video: Cessna 310 Ditching off Hawaii [Re: Doug_Ritter]
Fred78 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 10/11/11
Posts: 20
Loc: US
Hello folks, this wasn't quite the way I imagined introducing myself to the forum. I've been a long time reader, but just joined up officially.

My name is Fred and I'm also a pilot, heck it's even what I do for work (air carrier)...so I have an opinion or two of my own when things go wrong with pilots and airplanes.

First off I don't know the pilot involved in this, nor do I know or work for the same company, nor have I ferried airplanes.
But I have been flying for over a decade, am a flight instructor, and have flown both North and South of the border of the US.

And, in my opinion this flight was most certainly on a flight plan (either Defense VFR [visual]or IFR [instrument])since he was planning on crossing 2 ADIZ's (Air Defense Identification Zone), the first when he left the lower 48 and the second approaching Hawaii...and it's one of those pesky rules the FAA has in place as part of securing the national airspace. The boys in sage jumpsuits that burn jet fuel in a most spectacular fashion will probably come up an look at you up close and personal and escort you to some airport where a friendly government representative will ask, "What's up?", if you're not.

Also it was probably an instrument flight plan, since when you look at that flight aware track he was at 6,000 ft for most of it, which means it was the appropriate altitude for a west bound aircraft on an instrument flight plan, as per FAR 91.179.

Looking at the company web site, they seem to deliver lots of aircraft all over the world...so I would give them the benefit of the doubt that they did in fact have all the proper permits regarding ferrying this aircraft.

Now it's easy to sit in a comfortable chair on the ground and arm chair quarterback the result, but if you don't have the appropriate experience it really doesn't result in much...kinda like 2 blind guys arguing about what the color blue looks like.

I put fourth that it is very difficult to know your exact position when out over the water with absolutely no reference points what so ever, course with GPS it does actually become easier as long as you know what it's actually telling you and can interpret that into usable information as regards to your position, where you're trying to go, how much time, and fuel required, while factoring in weather, winds, etc..

This wasn't some 1 hr flight around the pattern, or even a 2 hr cross country, but a true intercontinental style flight where he was airborne for 12 hrs and 38 min. Everyone knows how fast the weather can change in an hour, let alone half a day later.

So given that I believe this was an instrument flight plan, he would have been required to have enough fuel to get to his destination, plus 45 min if the weather was forecast to be better than a 2,000 ft cloud ceiling and 3 statute miles visibility within 1 hr prior and 1 hr after his flight planned eta. (Estimated Time of Arrival). If the weather was forecast to be below he'd need an alternate airport, in which case he'd need the fuel to get there as well, and then the 45 min reserve. FAR 91.167

So if you're burning 28 gal/hr, 14 per side as it's a twin engined airplane, 7 gal/side gives you 30 min, so 10.5 gal/side or 21 gal total is all he would have been legally required to land with if the weather was good. Not much after you've burned over 350 gallons to get across the Pacific, and it doesn't leave you much room to play with if the weather/winds change after you cross your calculated point of no return.

And, it would have all been legal...possibly not smart but legal.

So the flight plan probably looked good, otherwise the FAA wouldn't have signed off on it (ferry permit), the Flight Service Station briefer (folks who file the flight plan for you) would probably have questioned the pilot if he'd said he wanted to fly for 12+ hrs but didn't have the fuel,or if the company had a dispatcher they wouldn't have signed off on it, and I don't know any old pilots who try and cross an ocean on a wing and a prayer, hoping for the best.

All that said, he obviously came up short and we won't know the reason until after an investigation by the experts...everything else is just speculation and depending on the tone throwing dirt.




Another point, which might be best discussed in it's own thread.

Why have some people become so obsessed with trying to recoup the cost of a rescue effort, I mean the folks at the Coast Guard are working and training anyway so it's not like that expense doesn't already exist, or go way up just because it's for real instead of training.

When you press that button on your PLB, should you be thinking about how much it's going to cost, or how about when you call the fire department, police, where does it begin/end?

Haven't we decided as a society that it's beneficial to all of us to have these services available to everyone, no matter if you could never afford to pay for it on your own?



So after all that, hope you guys don't think to badly of me.

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#233602 - 10/13/11 01:58 AM Re: Video: Cessna 310 Ditching off Hawaii [Re: Fred78]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
Thanks for the explanation, Fred! Since he was flying into the prevailing wind, I wondered if that made him use up more fuel than he anticipated.

Quote:
Why have some people become so obsessed with trying to recoup the cost of a rescue effort...


It's not the cost of the effort as much as the increasing idiocy of some of the people who cause the problems. Personally, I find it very irritating that so many people put themselves in situations with absolutely no thought or planning or even recognition that it could be dangerous. As long as they have their cell phone, they think they have everything covered.

Military, Coast Guard, fine. Our taxes have gone for worse things than that, but many searchers (including SAR) have been injured and killed going after idiots who should have known better, and THAT'S what I object to.

Sue

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#233603 - 10/13/11 02:02 AM Re: Video: Cessna 310 Ditching off Hawaii [Re: Doug_Ritter]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3819
Loc: USA
Welcome to ETS, Fred! Thanks for providing us with some useful info on this event.

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