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#232888 - 09/28/11 02:22 AM Re: Pepper Spray question [Re: GarlyDog]
7point82 Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/24/05
Posts: 478
Loc: Oklahoma
I may as well mention what I've been carrying ever since it came out; Sabre Red Crossfire.

It may not be available everywhere but IMO it's worth checking out. The last time I looked into pepper spray Sabre was the only manufacturer to offer a "crossfire" technology that can be deployed from sub-optimal positions. That may have changed since I last looked.


Standard disclaimer; no affiliation just a satisfied customer.
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#232895 - 09/28/11 06:22 AM Re: Pepper Spray question [Re: Susan]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3309
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Susan
If a man on PCP with two broken femurs can walk (somewhat) into an ER, how would pepper spray affect him?


Not much. This specific point was addressed in some classes I've taken by a police officer who found out the hard way.

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#232912 - 09/28/11 04:09 PM Re: Pepper Spray question [Re: Bingley]
Arney Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Bingley
...the policemen who came on the scene objected to the formulation of the spray the poster used when they recognized it. Apparently it was known to continue to irritate people in the vicinity of the spray subject afterwards.

I have read somewhere that the police generally do not use the most potent formulations of pepper spray primarily because the less concentrated versions work adequately, and the higher the concentration, the more difficult and time consuming it is to handle the suspect without contaminating the officers. You have to sit out in the open a lot longer to let 10% OC dissipate than 5% or to do eye flushes, etc.

I assume that the situation may be different for more specialized uses, such as riot control or corrections, for instance.

However, I find it hard to believe that the police would force a civilian transport a suspect unless there was more to the story, such as they were friends or family members or something like that.

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#232925 - 09/28/11 06:19 PM Re: Pepper Spray question [Re: GarlyDog]
TeacherRO Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/11/05
Posts: 2396
Spray; it works. Its a good solution, far from perfect. But in terms of non/ less lethal response? Yep. Get some. Get two, in fact. And check the wind.

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#232993 - 09/30/11 03:31 AM Re: Pepper Spray question [Re: GarlyDog]
trooper0366 Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 59
Loc: Missouri
I am a state trooper. My agency issues Sabre Red brand in a stream dispencer. I have used it on dogs a few times, as well as some wild critters(not skunks). It worked well. I have only had to use it once on a human(jail fight), it worked satsfactory. I received wind blown overspray during training(we have to test fire the unit regularily)as I was down wind when another officer test fired his unit. I could function initialy, but then had to sit down and face into the wind in order to decontaiminate. I have not received a full face shot as our original training did not require doing so. From the little I got as overspray I DO NOT want to experience the full effect, it hurts! I prefer the stream as it allows for better targeting and less chance for me to get hit. Our training teaches us that it is NOT effective on all people and it does take several seconds to reach full effect on those it does work on. We are tought to fight through the effects if we are ever exposed. If we use it, we then take the suspect into custody and handcuff to prevent any other action on the suspect's part. If you ever have to use it, be prepared to take follow up action(run away, etc.)as it does not instantaneously stop the pricipating event.

For larger crowd control we have a larger pistol grip stream dispencer avialable. For civil disturbances we have CS as an option.

If you have to use it in a self-defense situtation, well and good. Any other use could constitute an assault. Check the laws where you live as there are many different ones. My information is based on what applies in my home state.
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#232995 - 09/30/11 03:38 AM Re: Pepper Spray question [Re: trooper0366]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
Quote:
I could function initialy, but then had to sit down and face into the wind ... Our training teaches us that it ... does take several seconds to reach full effect on those it does work on... If you ever have to use it, be prepared to take follow up action(run away, etc.)as it does not instantaneously stop the pricipating event.


Well, that's interesting! With my lack of experience, I assumed that it worked instantaneously.

Thanks!

Sue

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#233006 - 09/30/11 02:35 PM Re: Pepper Spray question [Re: GarlyDog]
pforeman Offline
Member

Registered: 04/23/08
Posts: 170
Loc: Iowa
I wish we had a 'posting icon' with tears... that would so fit this thread! Anyway, I spent about 10 years working in corrections and also did some time way back as a cop. When I started out (early '70s) the tear gas in-a-can was just starting to be available - Mace was the big name then. Pepper spray came after that. CN and CS as riot control was also used a lot but from grenades and not in spray cans.

Tear gas spray was something I never trusted - I got gassed by it more than once and every time I used it or was involved were somebody used it - the "target" didn't stop fighting right away it always took a couple of minutes to have a full impact. When it got used on a group - they would break up and move away but it sure never produced a 'full stop' to anything.

With that in my background I didn't trust pepper spray when it came out - with what I found to be good reason. I think it works “better” but is still not something you can count on. Several times in corrections settings I saw inmates just keep on fighting (even if fighting ‘blind’) after being hit several times with pepper spray. As a part of corrections training we all had to get sprayed in a classroom setting (we got told to spray the chest area and NOT to spray in the face as that could be excessive force) and try to keep moving and reacting to a situation. The instructors would spritz us across the face from lower left side jaw to right side forehead so we had the full impact. Working through It can be done, it just hurts a lot. We also did full on gas training where (again in a controlled class setting) used masks and set off several grenades – the military guys will remember too – then they have you take off your mask and expect you to shout out your name, rank, whatever to get you to breathe some of the stuff… and still sort of function. Cue the visit from the puke fairy! You do learn that you can continue to function even if at a reduced ability.

The bottom line was anyone who is willing to can and will fight through being pepper sprayed or even gassed. They won’t function as well as normal but they can and will be able to do serious harm and continue producing mayhem. As an aside, the firearms instruction also teaches that there is no such thing as an “instant” stop when shooting someone so I don’t expect any chemical agent to do it either. So, consider the use of pepper spray as a tool that can have different results when used and DO NOT count on it to fully achieve the desired result.

Paul -

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#233017 - 09/30/11 04:59 PM Re: Pepper Spray question [Re: GarlyDog]
Arney Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
Just to add another angle. Since a specific application wasn't mentioned by the OP, there's one scenario I have contemplated for using an OC fogger.

For a burglary/home invasion-type scenario where your plan is to shelter in place until the police arrive, if you have time, a fogger could be discharged in the area outside your safe room to discourage someone from coming that way. Or perhaps discharging it in the stairwell leading up to the second floor or some other confined chokepoint. Obviously, it's only a deterrant, but if they aren't too motivated to get to you, it could do the trick.

And from a legal standpoint, I would think that someone who endures an OC filled hallway to get at you bolsters a self-defense case. They are probably incapacitated to some degree by the time they get near you, too, especially if they're breathing in that fine OC aerosol.

It would suck to decon your living space afterward, but that's a small price to pay if it works.

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#233024 - 09/30/11 05:59 PM Re: Pepper Spray question [Re: GarlyDog]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3309
Loc: USA
I probably would not use OC in my house.

1) I may have to move. I can't do that nearly as well if the hallway is full of OC. I don't own a gas mask.

2) If I can't immediately find my wife and children and make sure they're safe, I'm going to move towards the intruder and be ready to neutralize any threat. OC spray isn't usually the best choice for this.

3) OC spray isn't as effective as firearms are in trained hands. In a home invasion, I'm not beholden to a police officer's continuum of force, I'm not trying to deter a low-grade threat, and I'm not in a non-permissive environment. There is no reason for me to not use the most effective tools at my disposal.

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#233088 - 10/01/11 08:18 PM Re: Pepper Spray question [Re: GarlyDog]
nouseforaname Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/28/04
Posts: 76
i rarely post here, but i know pepper spray, haha. whole adult life in the security field - corporate, industrial, retail and government.

the thing to remember about pepper spray is that it is not a fight-ender 100% of the time. many refer to it as an 'eye jab in a can' and it should be treated as such.

as with any defensive (or offensive weapons), the bad guy shouldn't know what's coming until you've employed it...you should be quick, as accurate as possible and deliberate in your actions. look up the term OODA loop and see the role pepper spray plays.

what do i prefer? i prefer a cone fog...not only does pepper spray inflame skin and mucous membranes, but part of the fun is how it attacks the respiratory system. if you can introduce a good quantity directly into their lungs, you don't have to worry about them 'fighting through it', as when you can't breathe, you can't fight.

my second vote would be for a good ol'fashioned stream...saturate the bums and let them wallow.

yes, there is a small population who are more tolerant to spray than others. these are mostly people who have been exposed before or are too hyped up on adrenaline to care....there is no such thing as immunity. if they are relatively unperturbed by the spray, use that can as a fist load and get your hammer-fist on. repeat as necessary.

speaking of fighting through it - don't be afraid of employing pepper spray because you might miss or get some on you...if you use it knowing that you could get affected, you'll be expecting a reaction...just deal with it and get through it. again, pepper spray wont kill you and if you have to, just hold your eyes open and keep fighting.



haha, lastly - the worst part about pepper spray is not being sprayed, per se, its that evening when you take a shower thinking that you've gotten all of the oc out of your hair...nope, it is reactivated and runs right down the front of you...FUN!

ps - there is NO 'antidote' for pepper spray...just fresh water and time.

pps - get rid of the pepper spray keychains. they are entirely way too hard to handle under stress...





Edited by rumbaugh (10/01/11 08:19 PM)
Edit Reason: ...what paul said.
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