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#230333 - 08/23/11 03:12 PM Re: Three Hikers Lost for 3 days [Re: MDinana]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Originally Posted By: MDinana


Touche.

But I'm sure someone's going to ask for my ETS-card for not playing with a GPS smile


Some of us are old enough to remember a time before GPS. Continents were crossed, mountains were climbed, rivers were run, seas were traversed without GPS, somehow, someway.

It is a cool technology that is very helpful in many ways. But it is not a necessary tool for one to find the way through.

I have used a GPS since 1991. It is very helpful in giving a positive location to (in my case) newly discovered archaeological sites, among other things. I will shortly go out for a bike ride, and my faithful Garmin Foretrex will chart my mileage, track, and speed. Definitely a neat gadget.

In a survival situation, I would much prefer to have a decent map and compass. Neither requires battery power or exterior technology, either of which could be limited in a true emergency. I will continue to use GPS, but I don't regard the technology as critical.

Hikermor, the Head Luddite
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#230334 - 08/23/11 03:30 PM Re: Three Hikers Lost for 3 days [Re: Russ]
MostlyHarmless Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 982
Loc: Norway
Originally Posted By: Russ

If you have no idea how to use a map and compass, it might be wise to get an understanding of basic navigation principles because even a good GPS cannot fix total ignorance.


Well said! And a great story. The trickiest part about being lost is realizing you're geographically confused. Your mental idea of where you are takes precedence, and any evidence that really should tell you that you are somewhere else will be ignored. It can be very hard to realize you need to scrap that mental idea and start all over again.

Of all the other navigation tools on our belt, the GPS is the one that is easiest to use and will most consistently aid people out of their geographical confusion. More often than not, even pretty ignorant people can sucessfully use a GPS.

No tool is perfect. But as long as you have batteries the GPS will steer you right. Despite the flaws we've discussed in so much detail in this thread.

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#230336 - 08/23/11 03:49 PM Re: Three Hikers Lost for 3 days [Re: MostlyHarmless]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
I keep hearing the issue with batteries and that the GPS is useless without them, but if used with a map/compass, the batteries in a GPS can last a very long time. Turn it on and take a good fix. Mark that spot as a waypoint on the GPS and transfer the geo-fix to your map. Turn the GPS off.

Your new set of batteries has been used all of maybe 5 minutes and in the Geko's case, a set of alkaline batteries is good for an advertised 9 hours. If you use those 9 hours 5 minutes at a time, battery life is measured in days/weeks. In those days/weeks, being lost is not an issue.

$.02
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#230337 - 08/23/11 04:08 PM Re: Three Hikers Lost for 3 days [Re: MostlyHarmless]
Glock-A-Roo Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 1076
Originally Posted By: MostlyHarmless
Your mental idea of where you are takes precedence, and any evidence that really should tell you that you are somewhere else will be ignored. It can be very hard to realize you need to scrap that mental idea and start all over again.


Yup, in orienteering we call that "creative landscaping". grin

Originally Posted By: Russ
...if used with a map/compass, the batteries in a GPS can last a very long time. Turn it on and take a good fix. Mark that spot as a waypoint on the GPS and transfer the geo-fix to your map. Turn the GPS off.

...If you use those 9 hours 5 minutes at a time, battery life is measured in days/weeks.


Exact-a-mundo. Use lithiums and the lifespan is even longer, with improved reliability in cool weather.

I've used a Garmin Vista HCx for years but over time I have realized that I almost always just need to get point position. The fancier features have not been necessary for me. I am itching to replace it with the smaller, lighter, and IMO more rugged Garmin Foretrex 401. The 401 has Garmin's high sensitivity chip, which is mandatory; I've never failed to get good results under heavy forest canopy. It's down to $167 shipped at Amazon now, and I get paid this week... cool

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#230385 - 08/23/11 09:30 PM Re: Three Hikers Lost for 3 days [Re: Glock-A-Roo]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
For those who will never need to use the Garmin Foretrex 401's electronic compass and baro altimeter, the Garmin Foretrex 301 has the same ergo's and high sensitivity receiver, and it's less expensive.

For Garmin: with a high sensitivity receiver, the GPS derived altitude could be more accurate than the barometric since you need to know the local baro pressure to calibrate. My GPS V calculates altitude just fine and quite accurately without a high sensitivity receiver and with no barometric altimeter.
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Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
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#230398 - 08/24/11 01:09 AM Re: Three Hikers Lost for 3 days [Re: Russ]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
I get usefully accurate altitudes with my now discontinued Foretrex 101. My driveway slab is precisely 200 feet above sea oevel. The other day my Foretrex gave an altitude of 204 feet. I thought, that's pretty close, and then realized I was holding it at waist level...

The 101 does not alwaysgive an accurate reading, especially when first turning it on, but it will settle down and provide good info.
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#230408 - 08/24/11 02:58 AM Re: Three Hikers Lost for 3 days [Re: hikermor]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
I've noticed a lot of the newer GPS receivers don't have altitude displayed unless they have the baro altimeter. Will the Foretrex 301 display altitude?
_________________________
Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

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#230667 - 08/26/11 02:34 PM Re: Three Hikers Lost for 3 days [Re: Teslinhiker]
Roarmeister Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 09/12/01
Posts: 960
Loc: Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Teslinhiker

The Kananaskis area and Peter Lougheed Provincial Park covers a vast area and although there are plenty of streams,creeks, accessing the water is not always easy due to terrain etc. For those not familiar with the area, this is very rugged, mountainous country.



I'll add a bit of personal perspective here as I have hiked in this area a couple of times. The trip from the Upper Kananaskis lake day area to Three Isle lake or the branch up to Turbine Lake are both very popular hikes. In fact the area north of Turbine lake has a glacier that is used by the Canadian ski team for their summer conditioning. (I literally bumped into them on a training run!) There is a ranger cabin on the east side of the Continental Divide not far from the campground.

But once you get over the North Pass you are in territory where few people go. It is more rugged and the trails are almost invisible. In fact if you try to backtrack and climb back up the pass you are in for an ordeal because the trail is a lot harder to climb than to descend. The best bet is to head for the river in the valley where it opens up into some meadows and easier hiking. The west mountain side is pretty disorientating and easy to get lost there because the west side gets more rain and thus also a denser growth of trees and bushes. The mountains are pretty steep on the west side too. This trail isn't used nearly as much as the east side. However there best route on the west side is actually at the bottom of the valley near the river -- this is part of the Canadian Continental Divide trail.

This is grizzly country -- the last time I was there, there were 2 juvenile grizzlies recently kicked out by mama bear in the area and another grizzly south-west of Three Isle lake and another around Mt. Indefatigable. The area they were lost in is occasionally closed due to their activities. I never saw the bears myself but a nature photographer I passed 2x was basically going back down as fast as he could because he encountered them and was a bit scared.

I can see how they could get disorientated in this area. They would not have had an issue with water as there are meltwater streams everywhere from the snow peaks. Giardia is probably not much of a concern, certainly not in comparison to being lost! The search teams were probably searching the obvious east side of the divide which is where they hikers thought they were on and thus didn't spend as much search time on the west side.

Canadian Rockies Trail Guide

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#230669 - 08/26/11 02:44 PM Re: Three Hikers Lost for 3 days [Re: BruceZed]
Roarmeister Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 09/12/01
Posts: 960
Loc: Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: BruceZed

2) "They were tired and dehydrated, but otherwise OK, Webb said." They may have been relying on a stove to boil water for them and simply run out of fuel. I was hiking for a week just south of there two weeks ago. Every stream and river were still running higher than normal, so there should have been plenty of water. There rescuers said they were dehydrated so some part of their water purification system was not working.


Or simply forgetting to drink enough water when they hiking about. Since dehydration can happen in a couple of hours, they may have been concentrating on finding their direction and not enough time on drinking water.

The other day in Grasslands NP, I hiked for 7 hours in 32-35*C heat and drying winds and went through 4 litres of water via 2 water bottles and a 3-litre platypus. Using a platy and sip tube made hydrating myself easy. If they were relying on water bottles alone then I think it is easier to forget about drinking enough.

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#230670 - 08/26/11 02:48 PM Re: Three Hikers Lost for 3 days [Re: MostlyHarmless]
Roarmeister Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 09/12/01
Posts: 960
Loc: Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: MostlyHarmless
Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

Quote:
2) A GPS is an excellent tool to tell you where you are.


Unfortunately a GPS isn't a very good tool to tell folks which direction to head off to. i.e. the wrong map datum and incorrect Mag declination information may have made matters worse because the hikers will trust the electronic box to point them in the correct (wrong) direction.


The biggest problem with a GPS is a combination of these factors
- it is so easy and intuitive to use that it undermines the motivation to learn and train basic navigation skills (map and compass)
- the batteries will die (bring spares!)
- a solid knock or a tiny drop of whater in the wrong place is all it takes to kill even the most robust GPS


In their case, a GPS receiver would have required a lot of batteries. Consider that they were out for 3 days plus they were lost for an additional 3 days, they may or may not have had enough batteries to last that long even if only using it for the hours they were hiking.

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