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#229628 - 08/10/11 06:42 PM Re: Griz attack followup, needed Spot, not PLB [Re: clearwater]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1090
Loc: Channeled Scablands
I just read on the NOLS blog that the beacon was dented and didn't work at first.

http://nols.blogs.com/nols_news/2011/07/...-in-alaska.html

"but all organizations need to assess every incident and think what they would do differently, NOLS needs to rethink the lack of a wilderness medicine trained and certified pesonnel with the kids, that the GPS beacon was dented and did not immediately work, that the training of how to handle bears did not last in the panic of the moment, etc., etc."

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#229697 - 08/11/11 07:07 PM Re: Griz attack followup, needed Spot, not PLB [Re: chaosmagnet]
Denis Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/09/09
Posts: 631
Loc: Calgary, AB
Originally Posted By: chaosmagnet
Given the available technology, it seems to me that NOLS did exactly right.

I agree. Looking at this whole situation from a parent's perspective I would not hold NOLA at fault; I think they had appropriate risk mitigation in place for this trip.

On the technology front, I don't think technology is the issue, rather its how people are using that technology. As the original article pointed out, too many people appear to be using PLBs for non-emergency issues:

"What's happening is people are triggering their (PLB) because their vehicle is stuck or they forgot their tent or whatever," Leemon said. "It's watering down their response. It’s a lot like crying wolf."

If people were to restrict their PLB usage for real emergencies the rescuers would be in a much better place. I don't know how we accomplish that, however.
_________________________
Victory awaits him who has everything in order — luck, people call it. Defeat is certain for him who has neglected to take the necessary precautions in time; this is called bad luck. Roald Amundsen

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#229698 - 08/11/11 07:12 PM Re: Griz attack followup, needed Spot, not PLB [Re: Denis]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3074
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Denis
If people were to restrict their PLB usage for real emergencies the rescuers would be in a much better place. I don't know how we accomplish that, however.


Fines.

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#229699 - 08/11/11 07:14 PM Re: Griz attack followup, needed Spot, not PLB [Re: Virginia_Mark]
Denis Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/09/09
Posts: 631
Loc: Calgary, AB
Originally Posted By: Run2The9
To be "Prepared" in bear country is to be armed.. period. 99% of the time a firearm wont be needed, but when it is it's needed very badly.

Given this scenario and how it played out, a firearm is unlikely to have made a difference. This opinion article from the Alaska Dispatch does a good job at outlining why.

That said, we already have a fairly lengthy discussion on appropriate bear defense in another thread. I think it would be cleaner to keep this thread on the topic of the signalling / communication technology and leave the firearm aspect over there.
_________________________
Victory awaits him who has everything in order — luck, people call it. Defeat is certain for him who has neglected to take the necessary precautions in time; this is called bad luck. Roald Amundsen

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#229700 - 08/11/11 07:29 PM Re: Griz attack followup, needed Spot, not PLB [Re: Denis]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3074
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Denis
Given this scenario and how it played out, a firearm is unlikely to have made a difference. This opinion article from the Alaska Dispatch does a good job at outlining why.


Great piece, thanks for posting the link.

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#229707 - 08/11/11 09:18 PM Re: Griz attack followup, needed Spot, not PLB [Re: Denis]
ponder Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 367
Loc: American Redoubt
[quote=Denis Given this scenario and how it played out, a firearm is unlikely to have made a difference. [/quote]

Perhaps you could elaborate with some details. Your supporting article's author seems to carry more than a bible. The kids had time to kick, fight, watch from a distance and scream. Perhaps the time might have been better spent using pepper spray or the 12 gauge. When in deep cover, with minimal warning distance, the knowledgeable carries the shotgun at ready arms. Those wearing teal and burgandy should carry at least 8 OZ of spray in their strong hand.

I think the concept is "EQUIPPED TO SURVIVE".


Edited by ponder (08/11/11 09:18 PM)
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American Redoubt
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#229713 - 08/11/11 10:24 PM Re: Griz attack followup, needed Spot, not PLB [Re: ponder]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6788
Loc: southern Cal
Here is yet another instance of a hiker unable to deploy bear spray, but no details as to specifically how it was carried. If the griz gets the drop on you, your fate is in his/her hands:


Thursday, August 11, 2011

Glacier National Park
Hiker Injured In Bear Attack Treated And Released

The 50-year-old hiker who was attacked by a grizzly bear last Friday (click here for the original incident report) was treated and released later that day and continued with his travel itinerary. His injuries - bites to his left thigh and left forearm - were not life threatening. The hiker was hiking alone on the trail from Many Glacier to Piegan Pass when he was attacked by a grizzly bear. When he rounded a bend in the trail, he surprised a sow grizzly with one sub-adult. The bear attacked the hiker, biting his left thigh and left forearm, then grabbed his foot, shook him, released him and left the area. The hiker said he was carrying bear spray, but was unable to employ it before the bear attacked and that he was making noise as he hiked. According to rangers, the bear's response to the hiker was defensive in nature and consistent with a surprise encounter with a hiker. No action will be taken against the bear. The trail from Piegan Pass to Feather Plume Falls remains closed, but will likely open by the end of the week.
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#229714 - 08/11/11 10:29 PM Re: Griz attack followup, needed Spot, not PLB [Re: Denis]
celler Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/25/03
Posts: 410
Loc: Jupiter, FL
Originally Posted By: Denis
<snip> This opinion article from the Alaska Dispatch does a good job at outlining why.<snip>


A quick Google of Mr. Medred's works reveals a serious political slant with an pretty upfront gun control agenda. I would hardly consider his opinion piece a dispositive work on this topic, especially relating to anything having to do with the usefulness of firearms.

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#229725 - 08/12/11 01:45 AM Re: Griz attack followup, needed Spot, not PLB [Re: ponder]
Denis Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/09/09
Posts: 631
Loc: Calgary, AB
Originally Posted By: ponder
Originally Posted By: Denis
Given this scenario and how it played out, a firearm is unlikely to have made a difference.

Perhaps you could elaborate with some details. Your supporting article's author seems to carry more than a bible. The kids had time to kick, fight, watch from a distance and scream. Perhaps the time might have been better spent using pepper spray or the 12 gauge. When in deep cover, with minimal warning distance, the knowledgeable carries the shotgun at ready arms. Those wearing teal and burgandy should carry at least 8 OZ of spray in their strong hand.

I think the concept is "EQUIPPED TO SURVIVE".

There was a fairly thorough discussion about this on a previous thread about this incident.

I think that your questions will be answered by reading through that thread. And if not, I think that thread would be the best place to continue that discussion.
_________________________
Victory awaits him who has everything in order — luck, people call it. Defeat is certain for him who has neglected to take the necessary precautions in time; this is called bad luck. Roald Amundsen

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#229727 - 08/12/11 01:53 AM Re: Griz attack followup, needed Spot, not PLB [Re: chaosmagnet]
Denis Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/09/09
Posts: 631
Loc: Calgary, AB
Originally Posted By: chaosmagnet
Originally Posted By: Denis
If people were to restrict their PLB usage for real emergencies the rescuers would be in a much better place. I don't know how we accomplish that, however.

Fines.

You are right, of course. I think it would be quite reasonable to bring in fines for improper use and/or negligence coupled with an education campaign regarding the proper use of PLBs.
_________________________
Victory awaits him who has everything in order — luck, people call it. Defeat is certain for him who has neglected to take the necessary precautions in time; this is called bad luck. Roald Amundsen

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