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#229608 - 08/10/11 04:12 PM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: chaosmagnet]
celler Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/25/03
Posts: 410
Loc: Jupiter, FL
Originally Posted By: chaosmagnet

If you use a non-lethal force option and then end up using deadly force, you might face the accusation that it wasn't a deadly force situation at all. After all, you wouldn't have used a non-lethal option in that case.


Of course its easy to change the hypothetical to make any point you want, but I can't think of a single situation where someone who used non-lethal force that did not end the threat could be twisted into an argument that lethal force was not necessary. Only the opposite could be true, it fully negates the argument that less than lethal force was necessary.

Originally Posted By: chaosmagnet

Speaking tactically, unless you have a lot of irritant gas that you can deploy quickly, I don't think you'd be able to deter a large angry mob that way.


Speaking tactically, I can tell you have never used large bear spray unit. It deploys long and large. The biggest problem is not contaminating yourself.

YMMV.

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#229611 - 08/10/11 04:35 PM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: celler]
sheldon Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/28/11
Posts: 40
Originally Posted By: celler
It would be nice to have a non-lethal option in such a situation available so that resort to lethal force could be avoided. Unfortunately, most of these options are only available to police agencies.

What about birdshot? Seems like it could be painful and scary, but unlikely to kill a human.

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#229612 - 08/10/11 04:38 PM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: sheldon]
celler Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/25/03
Posts: 410
Loc: Jupiter, FL
Originally Posted By: sheldon
Originally Posted By: celler
It would be nice to have a non-lethal option in such a situation available so that resort to lethal force could be avoided. Unfortunately, most of these options are only available to police agencies.

What about birdshot? Seems like it could be painful and scary, but unlikely to kill a human.


Birdshot can be plenty lethal, especially under say 20 feet from the muzzle.

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#229613 - 08/10/11 04:40 PM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: celler]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3135
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: celler
I can't think of a single situation where someone who used non-lethal force that did not end the threat could be twisted into an argument that lethal force was not necessary.


I'm not an attorney, but an attorney versed in this area of law gave me this warning. Again, it depends, and you should consult a competent attorney for your jurisdiction.

Quote:
I can tell you have never used large bear spray unit. It deploys long and large. The biggest problem is not contaminating yourself.


I'm well aware of how large bear sprays work. You may have noticed that when the cops use irritant gas to disperse rioters, they tend to use lots more than even a large OC spray canister contains.

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#229615 - 08/10/11 04:45 PM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: unimogbert]
sheldon Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/28/11
Posts: 40
Originally Posted By: unimogbert
In the US there is the example of Korean shopkeepers defending their businesses from the Rodney King rioters (I think that was the event) using AR-15 so-called "assault rifles" from the rooftops.

Do you know whether they were charged eventually? Tried wikipedia and google, but didn't find much.

From the tactical viewpoint, this example would suggest that firing at the crowd wasn't that effective. It seems the crowd didn't disperse and just waited for them to leave. Of course, it seems they didn't kill anyone (just warning shots in the air).

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#229616 - 08/10/11 04:53 PM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: sheldon]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3135
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: sheldon
What about birdshot? Seems like it could be painful and scary, but unlikely to kill a human.


Never, ever, point a gun at a person unless you are legally and morally justified in using deadly force.

Never, ever, think that pointing a gun with a less-lethal round in it at a person isn't deadly force.

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#229617 - 08/10/11 05:15 PM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: dweste]
ireckon Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
The UK is having these widespread riots because of the ingrained belief that using non-lethal force on violent criminals is always appropriate. Violent criminals are definitely endorsing that concept. So, it can't be good.

After everybody's on board with this idea of non-lethal force, then there will be another movement for not allowing homeowners to use force at all. I'm sure criminals would agree to return a percentage of their takings just to turn that concept into law.

Unfortunately, the UK may already be there. Based on the home invasion cases I've read, the UK justice system fights back pretty hard against homeowners who have the audacity to protect themselves from home invaders, robbers, murderers and rapists. The U.S. needs to get out of NATO immediately before we catch this Nanny State disease like herpes.
_________________________
If you're reading this, it's too late.

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#229619 - 08/10/11 05:38 PM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: chaosmagnet]
sheldon Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/28/11
Posts: 40
Originally Posted By: chaosmagnet
Never, ever, point a gun at a person unless you are legally and morally justified in using deadly force.

What about if I am justified in using deadly force, but want to give them a last chance? I understand that legally birdshot is still deadly force, and I understand that it can actually kill a person. But I also understand that it's less likely to kill than, say, buckshot. It seems pretty similar to aiming a handgun at the torso rather than the head -- it's still deadly force and it can still kill, but less likely and incapacitating the attacker may be OK in some situations.

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#229622 - 08/10/11 06:03 PM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: sheldon]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3135
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: sheldon
What about if I am justified in using deadly force, but want to give them a last chance?


If you're legally and morally justified in using deadly force, then you should work to stop the threat as quickly as possible. Buck shot is much more likely to incapacitate an attacker than bird shot.

Quote:
It seems pretty similar to aiming a handgun at the torso rather than the head -- it's still deadly force and it can still kill, but less likely and incapacitating the attacker may be OK in some situations.


That's not at all the reasoning. We train people to shoot for the torso because it's bigger and is likely to be moving less. You're more likely to make incapacitating hits under stress when shooting at the upper torso.

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#229623 - 08/10/11 06:11 PM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: chaosmagnet]
sheldon Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/28/11
Posts: 40
Originally Posted By: chaosmagnet
That's not at all the reasoning. We train people to shoot for the torso because it's bigger and is likely to be moving less.

That's not what I meant though, I should have picked a different example to avoid this confusion. Say the accuracy isn't an issue at all, you are a good shot, you hold well under stress and you know you probably will hit exactly where you aim. Even in this case, I don't think you are obligated to aim for the head or even the torso. You may choose to aim for arms or legs if you wanted to give the attacker one more chance to stop.

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