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#229585 - 08/10/11 03:23 AM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: dweste]
ireckon Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
This issue is far beyond merely defense of property. I have vulnerable family members in my house. If I have an angry mob outside that is in the process of committing arson and/or other mass violence, that is an imminent threat to the lives of my family. The rioters can go elsewhere, but I can't move my home.

I'll turn on the video recorders and audio recorders. I'll attempt to get as much evidence recorded. Anyway, my state does have a form of the Castle Doctrine. There is no retreat requirement in my state. I'll make a judgment call in the moment. If the lives of my family are in imminent danger, there will not be any pontificating about the laws of self-defense. The lawyers will be there afterward to do all the pontificating. My job is to protect my family.
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#229586 - 08/10/11 03:28 AM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
ireckon Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor
The riots in the past few days in London town are actually quite nostalgic, takes me back a few years to the days of Thatcherism before the City of London big bang, de-industrialisation and the rise of the Yuppie (remember them).


Nostalgic? Are you sure you used the correct vocabulary word there? You have a wistful desire to return to the happiness of those riots? crazy
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#229588 - 08/10/11 05:24 AM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: ireckon]
Paul810 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 1428
Loc: NJ, USA
I've been out at Penn State University during two student led riots. PA is a state where concealed carry is legal (and some what prolific) and is now a caste doctrine state (meaning you have no legal requirement to retreat when life or property is at risk). Despite that, firearms never once came into it.

Rather, the police are pretty good at identifying and arresting the real trouble makers of the group before they really get out of hand. From what I saw, their tactic is basically to saturate the area with police, grab the major trouble makers, and use OC spray when necessary for protection. They more or less get right into the middle of the riot. This seems a bit different than what I've seen on tv of UK riot control, where they prefer to stand off a bit more.

Also interesting, was their significant use of horses and dogs. K9 officers and rows of horse mounted officers were used to essentially contain the crowd in an area where the least amount of damage would be created. They basically pushed the crowd where they wanted it and pulled out the real troublemakers.

They were surprisingly efficient at it as well. I saw a shop window get broken and, within a minute or two, there were more cops outside the window than rioters.

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#229591 - 08/10/11 11:58 AM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: dweste]
celler Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/25/03
Posts: 410
Loc: Jupiter, FL
It would be nice to have a non-lethal option in such a situation available so that resort to lethal force could be avoided. Unfortunately, most of these options are only available to police agencies. However, it seems to me that a large 16 oz. can of bear spray might generate enough widespread discomfort to convince some of the instigators to go burn down someone else's property. Of course, it could generate the opposite result making lethal force necessary. From a legal point of view, it seems like an attempt to use non-lethal force would go a long way toward absolving the homeowner from liability.

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#229592 - 08/10/11 12:10 PM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: dweste]
adam2 Offline
Addict

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 436
Loc: Somerset UK
I live in London, fairly near one of the most affected areas.
Firearms are not an option for the law abiding.
I know of places from where an illegal gun could be obtained, but would not take the chance.
The police take illegal firearms very seriously indeed.

I have however armed myself with a crossbow, which I believe to be legal to posses.
Carrying it in the street would not be allowed, but for home defence I might be tempted.

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#229593 - 08/10/11 12:49 PM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: dweste]
unimogbert Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 857
Loc: Colorado
In the US there is the example of Korean shopkeepers defending their businesses from the Rodney King rioters (I think that was the event) using AR-15 so-called "assault rifles" from the rooftops.

They were successful until the police came and made them give up their guns and leave.

Then their unguarded shops were burned.

Col. Jeff Cooper suggested that sniping the instigators with .22LR ammo would be a way of taking the steam out of the crowd. (arguing that shooting them with a .22 will shut them down and give enough time to get them to hospital to save their lives)

Seems to me that preserving the lives of firebombing rioters is over rated.


Edited by unimogbert (08/10/11 12:52 PM)

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#229594 - 08/10/11 12:58 PM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: celler]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3167
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: celler
From a legal point of view, it seems like an attempt to use non-lethal force would go a long way toward absolving the homeowner from liability.


It depends.

If you use a non-lethal force option and then end up using deadly force, you might face the accusation that it wasn't a deadly force situation at all. After all, you wouldn't have used a non-lethal option in that case.

Statute and case-law vary state by state, and different prosecutors have different attitudes. Consult a competent attorney in your jurisdiction.

Speaking tactically, unless you have a lot of irritant gas that you can deploy quickly, I don't think you'd be able to deter a large angry mob that way.

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#229595 - 08/10/11 01:27 PM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: chaosmagnet]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5175
Loc: SOCAL
But is this an angry mob, or a mob taking advantage while thinking this is fun and no one can touch us?
Interesting interview with someone in London. The first few minutes he speaks about the riots then switches to gold & silver.

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#229598 - 08/10/11 02:18 PM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: Russ]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
Quote:
But is this an angry mob, or a mob taking advantage while thinking this is fun and no one can touch us?


Lots of reasons I suspect for why?, from not being an ideal consumer (left economically on the sidelines) to many not getting a decent sh*g (lack of bling, bling as portrayed in 50 Cent Gangsta rap music videos and the like). This can be observed in any nightclub with the iPhone mating ritual displays. iPhones and bling are expensive and tend to be out off the reach of the economically deprived.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyPzGUsYyKM (you will need a couple of hours free time to get an idea of the comprehensive manipulation of society through electronic media and propaganda i.e. Public relations)

Constantly complaining from the Politicians this side of the Atlantic that the rioting is just nothing short of rampant criminal behavior by the so called 'criminal classes' is just a cop out (excuse the pun). Again this is just public relations for their own failures and incompetence. Sometimes its a little difficult to know if they are talking about socially pointless banksters or socially irresponsible teenage looters or arsonists. wink





Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (08/10/11 02:29 PM)

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#229607 - 08/10/11 04:03 PM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: unimogbert]
Dagny Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1916
Loc: Washington, DC
Originally Posted By: unimogbert

Seems to me that preserving the lives of firebombing rioters is over rated.


Ditto that.





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