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#227744 - 07/13/11 12:57 AM Re: Unwanted fame [Re: chaosmagnet]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3077
Quote:
It was designed this way on purpose. Most criminal justice systems are designed to protect the state. Ours was designed to protect the individual.


I was under the impression that the founding fathers who formulated the US constitution based the law on pre US revolutionary English common law. The US founding fathers may have taken on board the philosophy of Scottish enlightenment of Hume and his associates but the day to day pragmatic business of practised law was based on the English system of jurisprudence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_proven

Quote:
In a notable trial in 1728, a defence lawyer (Robert Dundas) persuaded a jury to reassert its ancient right of acquitting, of finding a defendant "not guilty". The case involved Carnegie of Finhaven who had accidentally killed the Earl of Strathmore. The law (as it stood) required the jury merely to look at the facts and pass a verdict of "proven" or "not proven" depending on whether they believed the facts proved the defendant had killed the Earl. As the defendant had undoubtedly killed the Earl, if the jury brought in a "proven" they would in effect cause this innocent man to hang. To avert this injustice, the jury decided to assert what it believed to be their "ancient right" to judge the whole case and not just the facts, and brought in the verdict of "not guilty".

The (re)introduction of the "not guilty" verdict was part of a wider movement during the 16th and 17th century which saw a gradual increase in the power of juries, such as the trial of William Penn in 1670, in which an English jury first gained the right to pass a verdict contrary to the law (known as jury nullification), and the trial of John Peter Zenger in New York in 1735 in which jury nullification is credited with establishing freedom of the press as firm right in what would become the United States.

Although jurors continued to use both "not guilty and "not proven", jurors tended to favour the "not guilty" verdict over the "not proven" and the interpretation changed.


The not proven ruling introduction into Scottish Law was actually a way of protecting an individual from the state using a 'ancient right' (i.e. probably predating Roman influence, in that the Romans never were able to completely subjugate the northern areas of the island of the British Isles.)

Quote:
The state has practically unlimited resources to find evidence, interview potential witnesses, and explore legal theories. One of the more important reasons that we require a jury of the defendants peers to find him or her guilty beyond a reasonable doubt is to somewhat offset this enormous imbalance of power.


Injustice is in itself a function of the ability to be able to afford or not afford the best representation. i.e. the wealthy are more likely to be set free (less likely to be convicted) than the poor.





Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (07/13/11 01:09 AM)

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#227749 - 07/13/11 03:19 AM Re: Unwanted fame [Re: Mark_R]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
It's hard to believe that the state went for Murder One without a better case than they had. And if more evidence comes to light proving that she was guilty, she still walks because of double jeopardy.

Personally, I think she probably did it, but you can't sentence someone to death on 'probably'. She appears to be a chronic liar, and it's hard to get to the truth with people like that, because there are so many layers and diversions.

"Criminal jury trials are outdated." No. Our Supreme Court has shown numerous times how they can be swayed, and if they can, lesser judges could be. If you don't want things hidden, I'm sure you could request a judge trial if you want one. I believe it is an option.

"One of the juror's ID's was discovered by his/her co-workers and she was forced to quit because they were so angry with the ruling."

That person was either fired, or quit. There was no 'forced to quit' simply due to an inability to stand up for yourself. And what of the company itself? They'd better smack down the dissension, or they could get nailed with a lawsuit themselves. And they might.

I believe I saw a reference to the case where a jury member said something like, "I didn't say she was innocent, I said she wasn't guilty". And that is probably the truth of the matter, as much as anything is.

Sue

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#227751 - 07/13/11 03:28 AM Re: Unwanted fame [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
Richlacal Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 778
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
The Lockerbie Bombing?

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#227760 - 07/13/11 10:24 AM Re: Unwanted fame [Re: MoBOB]
Leigh_Ratcliffe Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 1355
Loc: United Kingdom.
Originally Posted By: MoBOB
Our legal system is designed as an "Innocence Presumed" institution for a very good reason. A person is either proven guilty or their innocence is maintained; notice I did not say "not guilty". The third option you mention still leaves a considerable cloud of legal suspicion. There is nothing that can be done about the public's perception. The legal system does not need to fuel it. Now, the juries should be afforded protection under the law as shown necessary in this situation. If, in fact, someone lost their employment due to a hostile work environment, then the person has legal recourse against the company for them not providing a safe work place. I do agree with the concept of one or two well-scripted interviews.



More importantly: It's Contempt of Court and direct interference with the JURY and their oath's. Specificly it amounts to detriment with regards to the exercise of a right or duty. What she should do is contact the court and bring it to the attention of the Clark of the Court or The Judge.
_________________________
I don't do dumb & helpless.

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#227763 - 07/13/11 12:51 PM Re: Unwanted fame [Re: Richlacal]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3077

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockerbie_bombing

Quote:
A circuit board fragment, allegedly found embedded in a piece of charred material, was identified as part of an electronic timer similar to that found on a Libyan intelligence agent who had been arrested 10 months previously, carrying materials for a Semtex bomb. The timer allegedly was traced through its Swiss manufacturer, Mebo, to the Libyan military, and Mebo employee Ulrich Lumpert identified the fragment at al-Megrahi's trial. Mebo's owner, Edwin Bollier, later revealed that in 1991 he had declined an offer from the FBI of $4 million to testify that the timer fragment was part of a Mebo MST-13 timer supplied to Libya. On 18 July 2007, Ulrich Lumpert admitted he had lied at the trial.[49] In a sworn affidavit before a Zurich notary public, Lumpert stated that he had stolen a prototype MST-13 timer printed circuit board from Mebo and gave it without permission on 22 June 1989, to "an official person investigating the Lockerbie case".[50] Dr Hans Köchler, UN observer at the Lockerbie trial, who was sent a copy of Lumpert's affidavit, said: "The Scottish authorities are now obliged to investigate this situation. Not only has Mr Lumpert admitted to stealing a sample of the timer, but to the fact he gave it to an official and then lied in court". Traces of high explosives RDX and pentaerythritol tetranitrate (PETN) were found in close proximity to the explosion.


As you would imagine, the wrongful conviction of Al-Megrahi due to the FBIs interference in witness testimony and accusations of the creation of physical evidence would have inevitably led to Al-Megrahi winning his appeal. Releasing Al-Megrahi on compassionate grounds was basically a fix, to ensure that the appeal did not proceed, to the obvious relief of those who were involved in the evidence fabrication.

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#227764 - 07/13/11 01:00 PM Re: Unwanted fame [Re: Mark_R]
comms Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/23/08
Posts: 1502
Loc: Mesa, AZ
Originally Posted By: Mark_R
Comms: What's a "Dug Syndrome"? The only reference I could find was a medical one very much unrelated to notoriety.



Dug is the dog from the movie UP. His thoughts are transmitted to a collar around his neck so people hear him. Dug is very thoughtful and inquisitive...for about 5 seconds. Then he gets distracted. While we generally don't how he loses his train of thought, usually mid sentence of a thoughtful conversation he looks away quickly and says, "Squirrel!".

YOUTUBE VIDEO

In the context of my original comment, people will armchair quarterback Casey Anthony only until the next innocent looking young female goes missing is blasted on the national news.
_________________________
Don't just survive. Thrive.

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#227769 - 07/13/11 02:23 PM Re: Unwanted fame [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 2797
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor
I was under the impression that the founding fathers who formulated the US constitution based the law on pre US revolutionary English common law. The US founding fathers may have taken on board the philosophy of Scottish enlightenment of Hume and his associates but the day to day pragmatic business of practised law was based on the English system of jurisprudence.


Yes and no.

Keeping in mind that I'm an IT consultant (not a historian, Constitutional law scholar, or attorney), my understanding is that the Founding Fathers wanted to retain English Common Law in general, but with a shift in the balance more towards defendants. The Constitution was the paramount instrument of that objective. English Common Law has no written constitution, the Magna Carta notwithstanding.

Quote:
The not proven ruling introduction into Scottish Law was actually a way of protecting an individual from the state using a 'ancient right'


That's a useful clarification, thank you. Since the current version of "not proven" permits a retrial, I still think we're better off without it in the US.

Quote:
Injustice is in itself a function of the ability to be able to afford or not afford the best representation. i.e. the wealthy are more likely to be set free (less likely to be convicted) than the poor.


There's no doubt that the US justice system has room for improvement, and I agree that this is one of the biggest problems.

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#227772 - 07/13/11 02:55 PM Re: Unwanted fame [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
Richlacal Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 778
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Thanx,I owe you a Pint o' yeaster!-Rich attempting to pigmentate Gray matter to Frothy gold!

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#227777 - 07/13/11 03:49 PM Re: Unwanted fame [Re: NightHiker]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 2797
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: NightHiker
Not looking for an argument, just curious


Everyone in this thread has been very civil. One of the things I treasure about ETS is our ability to air strongly-held conflicting opinions about emotional topics without unpleasantness. Thank you all for that.

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#227781 - 07/13/11 05:13 PM Re: Unwanted fame [Re: chaosmagnet]
Blast Offline
INTERCEPTOR
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3558
Loc: Spring, Texas
Originally Posted By: chaosmagnet
Originally Posted By: NightHiker
Not looking for an argument, just curious


Everyone in this thread has been very civil. One of the things I treasure about ETS is our ability to air strongly-held conflicting opinions about emotional topics without unpleasantness. Thank you all for that.



And more importantly, the sheriff approves of everyone's conduct.
Thanks for keeping it civil.

-Blast
_________________________
Blogging the Borderlands
Wild Edibles Blog
I miss OBG.

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