Equipped To Survive Equipped To Survive® Presents
The Survival Forum
Where do you want to go on ETS?

Page 2 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
#227725 - 07/12/11 07:05 PM Re: Unwanted fame [Re: MoBOB]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3077
Quote:
Our legal system is designed as an "Innocence Presumed" institution for a very good reason. A person is either proven guilty or their innocence is maintained;


That is a very black or white viewpoint of reality and potentially lessens the evidential standards for a conviction, even it could be argued to the detriment of the accused as lower standards for a conviction may result as it doesn't allow for the grey area between the black and white, which can be caused by purely circumstantial evidence brought to the trial by the prosecutor. The Scottish system also has the same 'Innocence Presumed' and is a public trial also, but it doesn't allow for TV media coverage and has other restrictions which may contiminate the legal process. The main difference though is that the Jury should not be swayed (or even at least partly influenced) by the media speculation and sensationalism of the trial process itself. A conviction must be made beyond a reasonable doubt, so in effect it is a balance of probability based on the evidence at trial not a binary state of truth or false. A third state should be equally plausible.

Not proven wink

The fact that even the trial jury is even being critised or even individual jury members harassed to the point of losing employment would be quite astounding under the Scottish system of law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_proven

Quote:
A person receiving a not proven verdict is not fined or imprisoned, and is not subject to double jeopardy.










Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (07/12/11 07:11 PM)

Top
#227726 - 07/12/11 07:11 PM Re: Unwanted fame [Re: Mark_R]
Mark_R Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 05/29/10
Posts: 849
Loc: Southern California
Comms: What's a "Dug Syndrome"? The only reference I could find was a medical one very much unrelated to notoriety.

MoBOB: I'm also unlikely to be picked. Somehow the phrase "I'm a mechanical engineer" sends defense attornies into panics. Probably has something to do with being an analytical problem solver for a living.

The rest: The US justice system has a third verdict besides "guilty" and "not guilty". It's called "factually innocent", and the criteria seems to be that not only is there a reasonable doubt that you committed the crime, but it is beyond a reasonable doubt the you did not contribute to it.

I don't favor the tribunal approach since a judge has a very different outlook of life then those outside their profession. My paradigm is very different then a retail worker, who has a different outlook then a skilled laborer, who....
_________________________
Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane

Top
#227727 - 07/12/11 07:34 PM Re: Unwanted fame [Re: MoBOB]
Russ Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4901
Loc: SOCAL
Unless I'm missing the point here, there is a third option, that of a hung jury. We require unanimous for guilty and not guilty, but when there is not a unanimous verdict and the jury cannot resolve the conflict, the jury is hung, be it 6:6 or 11:1. A hung jury gives the DA the option of taking it to trial again.

The fact that this jury was unanimous for not guilty speaks volumes to the strength of the prosecution.

Top
#227728 - 07/12/11 07:53 PM Re: Unwanted fame [Re: Mark_R]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3077

Maybe there is a lack of decent films being made by Hollywood with directors such as Sidney Lumet (such as '12 Angry men' and the 'The Hill') at the moment and folks are just left watching 'Fast and Furious' sequels. wink Perhaps this is a driver for the public appetite for this kind of vicarious murder/mystery sensationalism.

Top
#227731 - 07/12/11 08:53 PM Re: Unwanted fame [Re: Mark_R]
LesSnyder Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 1520
Loc: New Port Richey, Fla
I sat on a first degree murder jury about 15 years or so ago, as well as Foreman of a Grand Jury indicting a first degree subject,, and not the Anthony case, but in general... if you are the defendant there are 13 people evaluating testimony and evidence that

a. believe the States Attorney has enough evidence of your guilt, supported by the fact the Grand Jury brought a True Bill

b. they are FOR the death penalty in the State of Florida


Edited by LesSnyder (07/12/11 08:53 PM)

Top
#227734 - 07/12/11 10:33 PM Re: Unwanted fame [Re: LesSnyder]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6536
Loc: southern Cal
I was also on a jury hearing a high profile murder case. A couple of points....

I thought that I would never be selected because of my law enforcement training and background, as well as EMT experience. But i must have been better than some of the alternatives. It was a lengthy trial (two and one-half months), and as a federal employee, I could serve for an unlimited time, which may explain why.

The trial the jury hears is not the trial that the public hears as it is filtered through the media. i have not been following the Anthony situation, but if the jury went unanimously for acquittal, there was probably a good reason.
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

Top
#227736 - 07/12/11 10:58 PM Re: Unwanted fame [Re: Russ]
MoBOB Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 1219
Loc: here
Russ,

A hung jury is not a verdict. The trial is not over until there is a verdict. Basically, the same as a mistrial.

The undue fame for the the jurors in a high-profile case has got to be crazy. I am hopeful there is due diligence on the part of law enforcement for these people.
_________________________
"Its not a matter of being ready as it is being prepared" -- B. E. J. Taylor

Top
#227738 - 07/12/11 11:09 PM Re: Unwanted fame [Re: MoBOB]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3077

Quote:
The undue fame for the the jurors in a high-profile case has got to be crazy.


As the cookie monster once said,

'That's show business.' grin

Top
#227739 - 07/12/11 11:12 PM Re: Unwanted fame [Re: Mark_R]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 2927
Loc: USA
Quote:
I know that jury duty is an obligation we have to our society but if you feel very strongly about moral issues and you're not afraid to speak your mind even at the risk of being politically/socially incorrect then you're probably not going to be selected for jury duty. If I were screened for jury duty in a trial like this one I would answer any question honestly and passionately. I have a feeling that my personal opinions on certain issues would get me disqualified in a heartbeat.


It depends. I did that and not only was selected for a criminal trial, I ended up as the foreman.

Quote:
Criminal jury trials are outdated. Jurors are typically those who want to serve, as those with any excuse are let go. Let a panel of three Judges hear all trials. Judges are less swayed by defense BS theories. All testimony is heard - period. The Judges will then decide what is relevant. No longer is anything kept out of the trial.


I disagree with this in the strongest possible terms.

The state has practically unlimited resources to find evidence, interview potential witnesses, and explore legal theories. One of the more important reasons that we require a jury of the defendants peers to find him or her guilty beyond a reasonable doubt is to somewhat offset this enormous imbalance of power.

Quote:
"Not Proven" needs to be imported to the US.


"Not Proven" became part of Scottish law in 1728, so we can take it as given that the Founding Fathers were aware of it. They chose a system that is designed to protect individuals from mistakes and abuse of state power. Frankly, I think "Not Proven" is a cop-out. If you can't prove your case, you shouldn't have brought it, and the defendant shouldn't have to face it all over again.

Quote:
That is a very black or white viewpoint of reality and potentially lessens the evidential standards for a conviction, even it could be argued to the detriment of the accused as lower standards for a conviction may result as it doesn't allow for the grey area between the black and white, which can be caused by purely circumstantial evidence brought to the trial by the prosecutor.


It was designed this way on purpose. Most criminal justice systems are designed to protect the state. Ours was designed to protect the individual.

In the criminal case where I was foreman, we were morally certain that the defendant committed the acts he was accused of, but we found him not guilty. The state failed to prove their case adequately. I'm entirely comfortable with that decision. No do-overs.

Quote:
The rest: The US justice system has a third verdict besides "guilty" and "not guilty". It's called "factually innocent", and the criteria seems to be that not only is there a reasonable doubt that you committed the crime, but it is beyond a reasonable doubt the you did not contribute to it.


"Factual innocence" is not a verdict. The only verdicts in US criminal trials are "guilty," "not guilty," and in some jurisdictions there is "not guilty by reason of insanity" and "guilty but insane". A hung jury has failed to reach a verdict. "Factual innocence" can be found by a court after a verdict of not guilty. In some jurisdictions one can petition for such a finding in order to clear or offset a record of arrest.

NB: I'm not a lawyer, and nothing I write anywhere should be construed as legal advice.

Top
#227740 - 07/12/11 11:50 PM Re: Unwanted fame [Re: MoBOB]
Russ Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4901
Loc: SOCAL
Correct, it does result in a mistrial, but the judge makes that call, we're discussing the jury's options. wikipedia on Hung jury. The point of my hung jury comment is that the case may be retried. If the DA doesn't retry the case, it doesn't matter if there's no verdict per se, the trial itself is over and the defendant walks.

Top
Page 2 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >



Moderator:  Alan_Romania, Blast, chaosmagnet, cliff 
September
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25 26 27 28 29
30
Who's Online
2 registered (Russ, Doug_Ritter), 248 Guests and 11 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
helium_voices, Nic0612, FeloMedina, Weather9237, EHoward
5261 Registered Users
Newest Posts
Makeshift sanitation
by TeacherRO
07:40 PM
Urbane Preparedness
by TeacherRO
07:37 PM
Changing my Location
by Jeanette_Isabelle
06:05 PM
Hurricane Florence
by hikermor
03:18 PM
The Loyal Order of Water Buffaloes
by Jeanette_Isabelle
12:55 PM
Giving paper matches another look
by acropolis5
03:43 AM
Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber
by clearwater
09:06 PM
Doug Ritter is famous!
by Phaedrus
09/17/18 11:03 PM
Newest Images
Tiny knife / wrench
Handmade knives
2"x2" Glass Signal Mirror, Retroreflective Mesh
Trade School Tool Kit
My Pocket Kit
Glossary
Test

WARNING & DISCLAIMER: SELECT AND USE OUTDOORS AND SURVIVAL EQUIPMENT, SUPPLIES AND TECHNIQUES AT YOUR OWN RISK. Information posted on this forum is not reviewed for accuracy and may not be reliable, use at your own risk. Please review the full WARNING & DISCLAIMER about information on this site.