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#220876 - 04/05/11 02:39 AM Re: What's Wrong with FEMA's List [Re: Doug_Ritter]
Lono Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/19/06
Posts: 1013
Loc: Pacific NW, USA
My mind goes back to ~2007 when I first searched on preparedness and hit on Doug Ritter's site, and his approach to lists was as thorough as it was informative. I built my first organized supplies (car, home, office etc) based on his lists. Worth a read now if you haven't in a while. But Doug's lists have explanations for many of the items - an element of education - which is not typical on many other lists. I think that FEMA authors fear the average reader's eyes may glaze over by page 2, or may only succeed in collecting the first page's contents, and never get to other of life's necessities (water, first aid etc). And maybe so, we're in the age of FaceBook and twitter where the thought process is sub-haiku, just 144 characters.

Also I think Doug's treatment of firearms in kits is logical and reasonable and pretty much settles the issue for me.

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#220883 - 04/05/11 05:39 AM Re: What's Wrong with FEMA's List [Re: Lono]
Paul810 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 1428
Loc: NJ, USA
Originally Posted By: Lono

Also I think Doug's treatment of firearms in kits is logical and reasonable and pretty much settles the issue for me.


Not to derail the thread, but...Speaking of which, it always struck me as somewhat odd that, in Doug's write-up of firearms, he doesn't mention that he carries a Glock model 22 concealed from time to time (or at least used to). With that in mind, I figured there would at least be a little blurb on the merits of lawful concealed carry by responsible individuals.

He mentions defense against larger animals, but sometimes it's the smaller animals of both the four-legged and two-legged variety that can be even more threatening to our survival. Not to mention, they're the ones more likely to be encountered.

(Speaking of which, my one experience where an animal encounter truly made me fear for my life was when I was accosted by a pack of feral dogs while I was just minding my own business loading up snowmobiles on the side of a road. It never ceases to amaze me how a situation can go from fun and enjoyment to sheer terror in a split second.)

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#220901 - 04/05/11 04:02 PM Re: What's Wrong with FEMA's List [Re: Paul810]
Richlacal Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 778
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Doug resides in Arizona.Arizona has Allowances for many things that Most other states do not,&There is Nothing Odd about that,That said,I think it's the Individual's duty to research as to whether it is lawful or unlawful to carry firearms,Exposed or Concealed,& Then,Make their own conclusions thereof!

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#220903 - 04/05/11 04:48 PM Re: What's Wrong with FEMA's List [Re: Richlacal]
Paul810 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 1428
Loc: NJ, USA
Actually, most states do allow concealed carry in either unrestricted or shall issue form:



Which is why I always thought it somewhat odd that Doug doesn't seem to mention anything about concealed carry anywhere (being that he does carry himself.) After all, it is a survival related issue. As I said previously, it's not always the largest animals one has to worry about.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is: Saying a firearm is of little use in the lower 48, and then carrying one yourself....just seems a little contradictory.

However, as with the FEMA list, I can understand if the issue was purposefully omitted to make it more appealing to a wider audience.

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#220919 - 04/05/11 08:01 PM Re: What's Wrong with FEMA's List [Re: Paul810]
Richlacal Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 778
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Paul810,You are Contradicting yourself,Check your Post/Graph again,I see only Arizona,Alaska & Vermont as Unrestricted-(Lime Green as opposed to Forest Green)Shall issue is a Whole world different than Unrestricted!It's Your own choice,Whether you feel a threat enough to carry or not,How & Where,I don't find any contradiction for Doug not advocating why he has a firearm in his kit.My guess is the info isn't there,Probably to avoid any confusion on his or any others behalf,Really it is up to you to figure it out on your own,if it bother's you so much!

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#220925 - 04/05/11 09:01 PM Re: What's Wrong with FEMA's List [Re: Doug_Ritter]
Blast Offline
INTERCEPTOR
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3561
Loc: Spring, Texas
Looks like I need to pay close attention to this thread...

-Blast, pre-soaking a cat.
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#220933 - 04/05/11 10:14 PM Re: What's Wrong with FEMA's List [Re: Doug_Ritter]
bacpacjac Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3600
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Lono

... Doug Ritter's...approach to lists was as thorough as it was informative ... explanations for many of the items - an element of education - which is not typical on many other lists. I think that FEMA authors fear the average reader's eyes may glaze over by page 2


I Agree with Lono. Doug Rocks! He and ETS helped me out tremendously when I got started - and they still do. Thank you all!

When I think of FEMA's lists and info, I think of my mom. She's an average 65 year old. Not stupid but pretty clueless about this stuff despite being a nurse, a nursing home adminstrator and a former camper. She needs things to be simple and straight-foward. Even with a solid list, shopping for supplies is a challenge. When she went camping with us a few years ago, she was overwhelmed by the selection of tents and sleeping bags and she only went to one store.

Explaining the purpose of the items on the list, and what to look for, would be a big help when it comes time to actually gather the supplies. We ETSers could spending months debating which item X is better, but that's only going to confuse and waylay the newbie prepper.

It's a fine balance, kind of like when your kid first shows an interest in your favorite hobby. It's hard to hold back and not try to turn them into an expert on the first day. Feeding them information as they are ready to absorb it takes patience.
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#220953 - 04/06/11 12:48 AM Re: What's Wrong with FEMA's List [Re: Blast]
Richlacal Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 778
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
No worries Sheriff,I heard the cat from here!

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#221027 - 04/06/11 09:30 PM Re: What's Wrong with FEMA's List [Re: Richlacal]
ILBob Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 776
Loc: Northern IL
I see nothing inherently "wrong" with FEMA's list. It is a list that is far better than nothing. If everyone had this kind of kit available when needed it would make a big difference.

FEMA is in the tough position of trying to navigate a minefield here. They can't really tell people they need to consider that they might well be on their own for weeks without outside help as that would trigger all kinds of unpleasant questions about how that could possibly happen, despite it happening on a pretty regular basis.

They cannot tell people to have guns or effective knives because that is moderately political in nature, and not always legal, despite being often useful in disasters. plus, if you take your guns/knives to a shelter set up by FEMA, they will make sure they are confiscated. They are not going to tell you you should have something they won't allow you to keep.

I don't think three days of water is enough, but I don't know how much is. Is 5 days enough? Ten?

Matches or a lighter have started many a fire. Probably the vast majority of fires that have ever been started deliberately. I see nothing wrong with it. Is it the perfect fire starting solution? No. Nothing really is, but it is far better than nothing.

How much food do you need? Most people can live a long time without all that much food. It's a lower priority than other things IMO. Few of us are going to die or be much more than inconvenienced if we don't eat for a day or two.

As for shelter, a tube tent is cheap. It provides some minimal level of protection from the elements. It takes up little or no room.

Part of the challenge of this kind of list is making the kit small enough and cheap enough that the average person who never needed one is actually willing to create one.
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Warning - I am not an expert on anything having to do with this forum, but that won't stop me from saying what I think. smile

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#221062 - 04/07/11 03:23 AM Re: What's Wrong with FEMA's List [Re: Doug_Ritter]
Art_in_FL Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2432
Given current events, a recession caused by the top 1% that has financially gutted the lower 75% and caused many people to lose jobs, benefits, insurance the people most vulnerable in any disaster are also the least financially and emotionally capable of assembling any reserve supplies. These are people struggling to keep a roof over their head, feed the kids and keep enough gas in the car to get to work. Which assumes they have a job.

The FEMA list is much more practical. Its emphasis is on keeping things simple, as inexpensive as possible, and getting the most bang for any effort put into it. It does a pretty good job of it. You can quibble over individual items and amounts included, I'm not enthusiastic about some of the trade-offs and compromises, but they cover the bases and give you something to work with to cover most needs.

If every household had such a kit you would smooth a lot of the rough edges on any disaster. It also has to be pointed out that a three day kit may, if you are careful and husband resources, get you through six days. The main limitation is water supply. Water, which can be problematic after a disaster, is fortunately the easiest resource to pick up before a disaster. A rinsed bleach bottle full of tap water is easily arrange and is close to being free. A six-pack of bottles water is inexpensive.

After an event water from toilet tanks, water heaters are resources. Water repositioned by filling garbage bags and laid flat in the tub are handy. All of those are cheap and available with minimal investments in cash and effort.

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