Equipped To Survive Equipped To Survive® Presents
The Survival Forum
Where do you want to go on ETS?

Page 5 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
#219610 - 03/18/11 01:11 AM Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort [Re: clearwater]
Mark_M Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 295
Loc: New Jersey
I'm not a climber, but I was wondering:

Could you friction knots to make paracord descenders that could control your speed? E.g., like one of the knots here: http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Prusik.htm?

Or, assuming you have enough paracord, quadruple it up and twist to make a larger bundle, then do a leg wrap or dulfersitz for a controlled descent. Specifically, I'm thinking about the "Surviving Disaster" Towering Inferno episode (see Part 6).

Ultimately, if you are planning for a situation of this sort, then better to prepare adequately than rely on something that is not suitable for the task. It seems to me that you can get a starter kit with 100' rope, bag, figure-8 and carabiner for around $150, and spend another $30-50 on a harness. There are also emergency building escape kits, primarily designed for firefighters, running between $150 and $200 (plus harness).

With lift tickets running over $60/day, if this is a potential risk for you, the $200 seems a reasonable precaution. Many skiers spend more than that just on their boots.

Finally, you there was a lengthy discussion about using paracord to repell out of buildings in this thread:
http://forums.equipped.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=187229&page=1
_________________________
2010 Jeep JKU Rubicon | 35" KM2 & 4" Lift | Skids | Winch | Recovery Gear | More ...
'13 Wheeling: 8 Camping: 6 | "The trail was rated 5+ and our rigs were -1" -Evan@LIORClub

Top
#219613 - 03/18/11 01:24 AM Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort [Re: Mark_M]
Teslinhiker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1418
Loc: Nothern Ontario
Take a look at how much work it is to safely rescue people off a low chairlift. Who/what would you trust more? Your little bag of rope and harness in your inexperienced hands or a pro who is equipped to keep you alive..



Another example with single rope.


_________________________
Earth and sky, woods and fields, lakes and rivers, the mountain and the sea, are excellent schoolmasters, and teach some of us more than we can ever learn from books.

John Lubbock

Top
#219615 - 03/18/11 01:50 AM Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort [Re: Mark_M]
ireckon Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: Mark_M
Or, assuming you have enough paracord, quadruple it up and twist to make a larger bundle, then do a leg wrap or dulfersitz for a controlled descent. Specifically, I'm thinking about the "Surviving Disaster" Towering Inferno episode (see Part 6).


Do you have a time code? Those videos are 42 minutes long.
_________________________
If you're reading this, it's too late.

Top
#219617 - 03/18/11 01:59 AM Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort [Re: ireckon]
njs Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 41
Loc: Colorado
To thos who asked, I didn't use anything special for 7mm rope, just a belay/rappel plate that looks like a metal circle with two oval slots, and a large diameter tubing auto locking carabiner. I used the same set up to rappel thousands of feet of fixed line on mountaineering trips. Belay plates are out of fashion now, replaced with ATC and Reverso type devices.

Later, I used an original Black Diamond ATC with single strand 7mm cord a fat carabiner. That is the key item, a carabiner with thick tubing.

The new BD Guide device, my current choice, is rated to work with 7.7 mm - 11mm rope but will handle 7mm using a Petz Attache carabiner.

Top
#219628 - 03/18/11 03:58 AM Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort [Re: njs]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
I would like to make a few points:

1) Rappelling is dangerous. In Yosemite Valley, rappelling kills as many climbers as does lead climbing. There must be fifty ways to die while rappelling (at least). There are many critical elements in a rappel system and failure or malfunction of any one can end things badly. I have dealt with the aftermath of rappelling accidents and, believe me, it is not a good way to die.

While it doesn't require physical strength or even particularly great coordination, rappelling does demand great attention to detail and concentration - occasionally even creative problem solving. You must know what you are doing. It is not something you should learn from a book; achieving true competence takes time and experience in varied situations.

2) Paracord has been around a long time and climbers tried using for various applications right after WWII. I remember reading in an edition of Accidents in North American Mountaineering years ago, after the discussion of an incident where paracord failure killed a climber that basically paracord had no legitimate application in climbing.

That holds true today. Find me a responsible climber or group who will advocate using paracord for rappelling or any other life support function. Two of the best written sources, Montaineering: The Freedom of the Hills and the caver's bible, On Rope do not mention use of paracord for any climbing functio.

Cavers are beginning to use thinner ropes for vertical travel in some very specialized situations - very deep caves where the total weight of the rope can be very critical. Here we are talking 6mm or 7mm rope, used with great care.

3) This whole discussion arose over a fictional occurrence - a movie script, for heaven's sakes. When I am out in wintry conditions, I try and keep minimum bivouac gear with me- HeatSheet, fire making materials, and something to eat and drink. These will be useful in any number of situations where I might be stranded and have to spend the night out, including the very unlikely possibility of being stranded on a lift overnight. I really can't see the need to carry a significant amount of specialized gear to gaurd against a problem that is not likely to ever occur.

I guess the question might be: How many people have died trying to rappel versus how many have died from being stranded overnight on a chairlift? I suspect the answer is several hundred rappellers and no chairlift victims.
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

Top
#219647 - 03/18/11 12:51 PM Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort [Re: ireckon]
njs Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 41
Loc: Colorado
"I guess the question might be: How many people have died trying to rappel versus how many have died from being stranded overnight on a chairlift? I suspect the answer is several hundred rappellers and no chairlift victims."

I suspect that the real answer is no one, or almost no one has ever died trying to rappel out of a chair lift. Here is my reasoning.

Firstly, for the most part chair lifts are very reliable. In the event that they do stop working for more than the few minutes typical of loading/unloading issues, stranded riders are informed by ski patrol and mountain employees about the repair/rescue status so those contemplating self evacuation probably wouldn't bother to try.

Secondly, the few individuals who do actually carry self-evacuation gear probably now how to use it, such as ski patrol and mountain employees and know when it is acceptable to use. Lastly, I just haven't seen any comments on such a things in the news or online at any ski/snowboard forums.

What I have seen first hand and learned of in the news are injuries to people caused by jumping off of temporarily stropped lifts onto what they think is soft snow from what they thought, wasn't too high.

The whole, stranded on a chair lift (not enclosed tram/gondola) scenario is utterly silly to me, since at most resorts where I've patrolled or skied the standard practice is that when a chair is "closed", access is limited while the chairs continue to run and each chair is inspected. In some cases this means flipping seats up to limit snow collection and in other cases, just insuring that there are no passengers or damage to chairs.

Also, patrollers, groomers and other mountain workers are out on the slopes long after and well before the resort is closed and would likely notice someone stranded on a chairlift. Please note, this does mean they'll see you if you are stuck in a tree well, lost in a more remote part of the resort or out in the side country.

As a note, clearwater also mentioned his ski patrol organization carried self evacuation gear.

Top
#219656 - 03/18/11 02:05 PM Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort [Re: ireckon]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
To a big extent this hypothetical discussion is a bit silly. But for me it's raised one obvious practical outcome ...

I've got 200 feet of static line sitting in my garage. So I'm going to coil it and move it to my truck where it's accessible, along with a harness, some carabiners, some slings, and a rappel device. If you are going to get a job done - you need to use the RIGHT tools. Descending on fine diameter ropes is not a great idea. Now ... am I ever going to actually need to do this in a disaster? I really seriously doubt it. But it also makes no sense for the gear to be sitting in my garage collecting dust. I need to keep my SPOT satellite device with me too - I usually leave that at home (except when I am going on remote trips).

Pete #2

Top
#219657 - 03/18/11 02:15 PM Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort [Re: ireckon]
comms Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/23/08
Posts: 1502
Loc: Mesa, AZ
Right. I think the thread has moved from What If's from the highly fictionalized movie Frozen, into a debate on the use of 550 cord as a rappelling device from a ski lift.

As many of us have said before, in a real world situation, 550 is a horrible way to self rescue and there are better ways to be prepared. Take the money you'd likely spend on hospital bills and buy a PLB. I'm a fan of ACR units. I own a SPOT2, DeLorme & SPOT have a combined unit out now to type out personalized text messages.
_________________________
Don't just survive. Thrive.

Top
#219658 - 03/18/11 02:15 PM Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort [Re: Pete]
Teslinhiker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1418
Loc: Nothern Ontario
Originally Posted By: Pete
To a big extent this hypothetical discussion is a bit silly. But for me it's raised one obvious practical outcome ...

I've got 200 feet of static line sitting in my garage. So I'm going to coil it and move it to my truck where it's accessible, along with a harness, some carabiners, some slings, and a rappel device. If you are going to get a job done - you need to use the RIGHT tools. Pete #2


You also need the RIGHT training...Rappelling mistakes are more often then not, unforgiving and here is a perfect and very timely example of the consquences when rapelling goes wrong.

No matter what, David Cicotello knew he had to survive. Cicotello, 57, was stranded on a ledge in No Man's Canyon, in the rugged wilderness some 180 miles southeast of Salt Lake City. His climbing partner — 70-year-old brother Louis — laid motionless on the ground 100 feet below, having fallen while rappelling.

By the second day, the brothers were in the North Fork of No Man's Canyon. They rappelled 40 feet to the ledge in a crevice. There was 100 feet to go to the canyon bottom. The plan: Eat lunch after rappelling down, then walk an old horse trail back to the rim.
Louis set an anchor and fed rope through a rappel ring. And then went over the ledge. Moments later, the rope whipped through the ring and disappeared. David called out to his brother; there was no reply.



_________________________
Earth and sky, woods and fields, lakes and rivers, the mountain and the sea, are excellent schoolmasters, and teach some of us more than we can ever learn from books.

John Lubbock

Top
#219662 - 03/18/11 02:30 PM Re: Surviving a Chair Lift at a Ski Resort [Re: ireckon]
comms Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/23/08
Posts: 1502
Loc: Mesa, AZ
I went to Air Assault school in the Army which is all about rappelling, then used that in a few other Army courses. I've rappelled from cliffs, buildings and helicopters using the traditional technique, Hollywood and Aussie methods. I rock climbed for several years before and after as lead and belay but haven't been in a harness for over ten years.

Even with all that background, there is no way I would trust myself today to tie in, tie off correctly. I need a 'safety' to inspect what I do before going over the side. It's made me think of getting re-certified in rope work at a climbing gym just for my piece of mind.

I totally agree with Teslinhiker. With ropes, the RIGHT training is more important than just having the gear.
_________________________
Don't just survive. Thrive.

Top
Page 5 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >



Moderator:  Alan_Romania, Blast, cliff, Hikin_Jim 
March
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Who's Online
0 registered (), 444 Guests and 28 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
GallenR, Jeebo, NicholasMarshall, Yadav, BenFoakes
5367 Registered Users
Newest Posts
What did you do today to prepare?
by dougwalkabout
03/27/24 11:21 PM
Zippo Butane Inserts
by dougwalkabout
03/27/24 11:11 PM
Question about a "Backyard Mutitool"
by Ren
03/17/24 01:00 AM
Problem in my WhatsApp configuration
by Chisel
03/09/24 01:55 PM
New Madrid Seismic Zone
by Jeanette_Isabelle
03/04/24 02:44 PM
EDC Reduction
by EchoingLaugh
03/02/24 04:12 PM
Newest Images
Tiny knife / wrench
Handmade knives
2"x2" Glass Signal Mirror, Retroreflective Mesh
Trade School Tool Kit
My Pocket Kit
Glossary
Test

WARNING & DISCLAIMER: SELECT AND USE OUTDOORS AND SURVIVAL EQUIPMENT, SUPPLIES AND TECHNIQUES AT YOUR OWN RISK. Information posted on this forum is not reviewed for accuracy and may not be reliable, use at your own risk. Please review the full WARNING & DISCLAIMER about information on this site.