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#218853 - 03/12/11 08:00 PM Re: Fukushima Nuke Plant Explosion [Re: Susan]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3077


From this photo I think we can assume that the environmental shield is gone, and all the control systems, pumps, turbines etc used to remove the heat in the reactor core in a controlled fashion are gone as well (thrown hundreds of metres either side of the environmental concrete shield, which itself was basically turned to dust) and the reactor containment shield is breached with the reactor core is well alight.

So much for the vested interest commentary from the media news nuclear experts and the information from the Japanese Government pretending that what has happened today doesn't even warrant a more dangerous accident than the 3 mile island incident.

If the wind changes how do you evacuate 40 million from Greater Tokyo Yokohama urban area 120 miles away. I guess the answer is that you can't.

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#218858 - 03/12/11 08:19 PM Re: Fukushima Nuke Plant Explosion [Re: Susan]
bacpacjac Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3599
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Susan
In everyone's quest for instant information, we should also keep in mind that Japan's most pressing need right now is not really for processing outgoing information.

Sue


Agreed. they've got many much more important things to do right now.
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#218859 - 03/12/11 08:19 PM Re: Fukushima Nuke Plant Explosion [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
Teslinhiker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1368
Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor


So much for the vested interest commentary from the media news nuclear experts and the information from the Japanese Government pretending that what has happened today doesn't even warrant a more dangerous accident than the 3 mile island incident.

If the wind changes how do you evacuate 40 million from Greater Tokyo Yokohama urban area 120 miles away. I guess the answer is that you can't.


Sorry to disappoint you. So far this reactor emergenecy is not quite as bad as Three Mile...yet.

Factbox: International nuclear event scale explained

he Japanese nuclear safety agency rated the damage at a nuclear power plant at Fukushima at a four on a scale of one to seven, which is not quite as bad as the Three Mile Island accident in the United States in 1979, which registered a five. But what does that mean?

The International Atomic Energy Agency -- an inter-governmental organization for scientific co-operation in the nuclear field -- said it uses the scale to communicate to the public in a consistent way the safety significance of nuclear and radiological events.
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Earth and sky, woods and fields, lakes and rivers, the mountain and the sea, are excellent schoolmasters, and teach some of us more than we can ever learn from books.

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#218861 - 03/12/11 08:35 PM Re: Fukushima Nuke Plant Explosion: Wikipedia [Re: Teslinhiker]
rafowell Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 214
Loc: Southern California
Wikipedia has a pretty good summary

Wikipedia article on Fukushima I Incident

Note that Wikipedia article itself is the "polished summary". The linked references go into much more detail, and the Article Discussion Page will provide more insight, as well.

As noted on the page, the Wikipedia article will evolve as news comes in.
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#218863 - 03/12/11 08:45 PM Re: Fukushima Nuke Plant Explosion [Re: MartinFocazio]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1347
I should have explained a couple of points I was trying to make.

* I don't believe that the authorities in Japan are deliberately trying to confuse people. I'm sure they are not. But I do think that they've got more info at their fingertips than what they are telling the public. You can be dead certain that the power plant operators MUST have some radiation level measurements already. They've got to. Likewise, I'd be very surprised if some Japanese Gov't scientists don't have some data too. So where is this data??? Nowhere to be found. They need to release the figures to their own public.

* I disagree with the idea that tons of info is out there. It's not that simple. What we've got is tons of scraps of information spread out over thousands of Web sites. That does absolutely no good. It needs to be coordinated to one Web site - where everyone can find it. No coordination means no useful information. No big picture.

* The Japanese Gov't doesn't owe me anything. I totally agree on that one. They don't owe me diddly squat. But they SHOULD be getting the data out to their own citizens.

* I'm not trying to do Monday Morning quarterbacking on the Japanese response. I'm trying to learn what i can - so we can apply it to where I live. My neighborhood is in So. California. We could have the same disaster happen to our coastline at any time in the future. It would be nice to learn some important lessons. Personally, I have learned a LOT by watching what happened in Japan.

* The name "Wikileaks" seems to conjure up conspiracy ideas for some people. So let me scrap that name. We need some sort of place on the Web where real-time disaster reports can be filed. Esp. reports from people inside the disaster zone. That would be truly helpful. I do see a tendency for governments to try to monopolize information so they can "decide" how best to respond. I suggest that the best way for any free society to respond is for governments to give the data directly to their citizens. Let people on the street also have a chance to evaluate the information and decide their own responses.

I did notice today that many local teams of Japanese responders are already hard at work - rescuing people and digging out survivors. So the Japanese people are doing an awesome job at the local level.

Finally ... let me be humble. I doubt that we are anywhere near as ready in So. California as the people of Japan are - for a major disaster like this. This would be a very tough experience for us. I hope that we are learning something positive ... there are only so many chances before the real test comes.

other Pete

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#218865 - 03/12/11 08:48 PM Re: Fukushima Nuke Plant Explosion: Wikipedia [Re: MartinFocazio]
Mark_R Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 05/29/10
Posts: 849
Loc: Southern California
The IAEA is publishing updates. I would trust them more then conventional news sources. Beside most news organizations don't have nuclear engineers on staff.
http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html

Note that the reactor #1, the one that is crises, is a GE designed boiling water reactor. The GE power website has cutaways views of both the reactor core and the plant construction.

http://www.gepower.com/prod_serv/products/nuclear_energy/en/new_reactors/abwr.htm

This is probably what they're dealing with.


Edited by Mark_R (03/12/11 08:54 PM)
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#218868 - 03/12/11 09:12 PM Re: Fukushima Nuke Plant Explosion [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
Eric Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/09/06
Posts: 323
Loc: Iowa
Actually the only thing I can assume from that photo is that something is burning. There is absolutely no way to know if it is the core of a nuclear reactor, the electrical transformers or the diesel tank farm at the site for the stand by generators. There is no detail in the photo to determine if or how much of the facility is intact.

Alarmist assumptions from limited data don't help anyone. Spreading misinformation and preying on the over hyped fears about dangers of nuclear power and radiation seems more like grinding a personal axe. I haven't been able to keep a very close eye on this but the facts that are being reported so far indicate that the local residents have more to worry about from the loss of power or their next airplane trip than the "fallout" (pun intended) from this incident. Of course things can and will change or I may be behind the news cycle again.

- Eric
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#218878 - 03/12/11 10:13 PM Re: Fukushima Nuke Plant Explosion [Re: ]
Eric Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/09/06
Posts: 323
Loc: Iowa
China syndrome is a misleading term in several ways and part of the Fear Uncertainty and Doubt surrounding nuclear power.

If you assume a runway reaction where the molten reactor fuel actually makes it down to the mantle (not really all that deep compared to the center of the planet) the actual environmental effect would be pretty low. The radioactive material would disperse by convection throughout the mantle, which is in any case kept liquid by natural nuclear decay.

It is more likely that the melted core would not get much past 30-50 feet of depth before stopping. The ground beneath and around the reactor would absorb the heat and transfer it conductivity to the surrounding area so the ground under it wouldn't get hot enough for it to burn through. Wikipedia has a decent writeup on this.

- Eric

PS - I do not work for the nuclear power industry or have any vested interest in nuclear power.
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#218879 - 03/12/11 10:13 PM Re: Fukushima Nuke Plant Explosion [Re: MartinFocazio]
LesSnyder Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 1520
Loc: New Port Richey, Fla
there is probably some confusion in the media concerning the need for heat exchange... the only way to put out a fission fire is to absorb the neutrons (typically with boron or cadmium) and stop the chain reaction...if the nuclear vessel is still intact you need to cool the reactor core and control rods to keep them in position so the control rods are between the fuel bundles... if they have in fact been scrammed (dropped to stop the neutron flux)....the steam or hydrogen (some of which would be H3 the radioactive isotope -tritium) explosion probably caused damage to the containment building (I've been away from the news)...the most dangerous of the radioactive fission products are the radioisotopes of strontium, cesium, and iodine that replace the less reactive elements (above them on the left side of the periodic table...calcium, potassium-sodium-lithium... and iodine used by the thyroid gland) in the body as well as the bone seeker and soft tissue isotopes of uranium and its decay daughters...

I'm sure the carrier task group has sniffers

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#218882 - 03/12/11 10:24 PM Re: Fukushima Nuke Plant Explosion [Re: Eric]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3077
Quote:
Alarmist assumptions from limited data don't help anyone. Spreading misinformation and preying on the over hyped fears about dangers of nuclear power and radiation seems more like grinding a personal axe.



Please listen to the 4th video down in the group entitled 'Japans nuclear worries'

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/12/japan.nuclear/index.html?hpt=T1

Let alone the Breaking News Headline.

Quote:
Meltdown may be under way at Fukushima Daiichi's nuclear power reactor, an official with Japan's safety agency says.



Please listen to the video entitled WMA Spokesman Ian Hore-Lacy on Nuclear Plant about how it is impossible for the environmental containment shield to be blown off the reactor building.

Also it would appear that the larger reactor Number 3 has also had a coolant system failure and may well be going the same way as Number 1



Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (03/12/11 10:26 PM)

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