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#21760 - 11/23/03 04:45 PM Re: Don't under estimate the lowly 22
boatman Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/10/03
Posts: 424
Loc: Michigan
Yep, found it .On the home page on left side go to Gear and equipment and click on it.Scroll down to"Bang(survival firearms)".It's a short article but it says it well enough.

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#21761 - 11/23/03 06:04 PM Re: "INTO THE WILD" A QUESTION ABOUT THE BOOK
Anonymous
Unregistered


Everyone brought up some really good points on the 22 but one that was not brought up was the price of guns and ammo. I have a CZ 452 in 22 lr I paid about 200 bucks for, try to buy a decent centerfire for that price, it will, with boring regularity, shoot .5" groups at 50 yards. There is no recoil, no muzzle blast and ammo is dirt cheap I can shoot all I want, which makes me a better shot and hunter, and not worry about disturbing people a half a mile away.
A bit more about the effectiveness of the 22lr, I sat on the end of a dirt runway in AZ and with the rifle I described above, shooting from shooting sticks, with a 10X mil dot scope, killed 3 Jack rabbits in 7 shots, at a leica lased 211 yds. This isn't a tall tale, I did it. Chris


Edited by WEB (11/23/03 06:08 PM)

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#21762 - 11/23/03 06:17 PM Re: "INTO THE WILD" A QUESTION ABOUT THE BOOK
M_a_x Online   happy
Old Hand

Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 911
Loc: Germany
Just out of curiosity: May I ask for which distance did you set your scope for that?
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If it isnīt broken, it doesnīt have enough features yet.

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#21763 - 11/23/03 06:32 PM Re: "INTO THE WILD" A QUESTION ABOUT THE BOOK
Anonymous
Unregistered


Max,
The scope is a Tasco 2 to 10x mildot, it was set to 10x. After three ranging shots, POI was right where the cross hairs get fine at the very bottom of the reticule. The bullet was dropping below the last mil dot. The shots were made right at dusk with no wind, ammo was CCI Mini mag hollow points. The rabbits did not even seem to be disturbed at the sound of the gun firing, but would move a bit at the sound of impact. All three rabbits even at this range were cleanly killed and did not run.
I have a hunting partner and both of us regularly set up about 100 to 150 yards from brush piles with a lot of rabbits and make those shots regularly, it is actually a very deadly way to hunt the rabbits aren't disturbed and if you have a good spot you can kill several with out spooking them. Chris

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#21764 - 11/23/03 07:14 PM Re: "INTO THE WILD" A QUESTION ABOUT THE BOOK
M_a_x Online   happy
Old Hand

Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 911
Loc: Germany
Chris,
thanks for the information. It seems that the animals are not really disturbed by the sound of gunfire at distances of 100 yards or more. The animals do not connect the sound to danger unless they are taught to. Itīs quite common that animals do not run after the hit when they arenīt disturbed.
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If it isnīt broken, it doesnīt have enough features yet.

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#21765 - 11/23/03 07:20 PM Re: "INTO THE WILD" A QUESTION ABOUT THE BOOK
Anonymous
Unregistered


Max,
What part of Germany are you in? I was stationed there 92-96, I was in Augsburg for 2 years then moved to Bad Aibling for 2 and half. The animals reaction to gunfire has alot to do with how much they are hunted. Chris


Edited by WEB (11/23/03 07:20 PM)

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#21766 - 11/23/03 08:04 PM Re: Don't under estimate the lowly 22
Anonymous
Unregistered


This is the sort of thing I was talking about. Scroll about 1/6th og the way down. Its called "Secondhand Crosman Ratcatcher with silencer". Good price too.

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#21767 - 11/23/03 08:07 PM Re: "INTO THE WILD" A QUESTION ABOUT THE BOOK
M_a_x Online   happy
Old Hand

Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 911
Loc: Germany
Iīm close to Erlangen. Thatīs about 140 km north of Augsburg. We hunt mostly roe deer here. They are hunted frequently. We have a rule to sit and wait for some time after the kill. When the distance is short the animals run even with good shots. When the distance is longer they usually stay on the spot. Rabbits were usually shot at short distance in the head. As long as they didnīt spot the hunter they kept coming.
A friend once shot a deer in an area were the deer is hunted very infrequently. The distance was about 150 yards the gun was .243. The deer stood through two "ranging shots" and finally took the bullet without running. Thatīs not common however.
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If it isnīt broken, it doesnīt have enough features yet.

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#21768 - 11/23/03 09:52 PM Re: Don't under estimate the lowly 22
AyersTG Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 1272
Loc: Upper Mississippi River Valley...
For what it's worth...

And I've seen small game taken cleanly with a blank round chambered behind a twig shoved into the barrel.. not a great idea, but it works at close range.

I have a fair bit of North American big game experience - all critters but one with something a lot more appropriate than a 22 rimfire.

The 22 long rifle is a very lethal round - but not neccessarily incapacitating. Relatively deep penetration and a long skinny permanent wound channel, no matter what kind of ammo you feed it (forget exploding water-filled cans - it ain't the same thing). Very very lethal for the patient person who places shots precisely.

Statute of limitations having expired long time ago - it will in fact cleanly take a whitetail IFF the shot is precise. One shot, one pile of meat. First deer - amazed me. A .458 wouldn't have dropped it any quicker. The only deer I ever had step out of its tracks was a heart-lung-shot with a very heavily constructed 30 caliber 180gr bullet (elk was the venue, but there was a deer tag as well) - the wound channel was amazingly like a 22, only bigger. Same bullet I've hammered griz and moose with. Bambi run, bambi fall <shrug> would have had the same result, more or less, with a 22. Maybe a little longer run - or not.

And 22 rimfire is very quiet in a rifle with subsonic velocity ammunition. And the ammo is small and not especially heavy, as ammo goes.

But - exactly what sort of "survival" situation are we talking about? I would not choose the 22 on purpose unless I was intending to stay a long time or travel a long distance and hunting meat for the pot was part of my plan.

The ammo is not particularly waterproof compared to factory centerfire ammunition. It appears to have a shorter "shelf life" (not that it would matter in anything other than a TEOTWAWKI situation). And... there's that "precise" and "not neccessarily incapacitating" caveat. Not what I would prefer to face a large canivore or POed moose (elk to Europeans) with.

I have a choice of firearms to take into the wilds with me and on some trips for specific reasons, a 22 has been the caliber of choice for me. But not usually. On extended duration trips on foot where fresh meat was hoped for, I carefully loaded "small game" rounds for my centerfire rifle of choice for that trip. Noisy compared to 22? Sure. Large compared to 22? Sure. But it does the job. Some folks carry a sub-caliber device and sub-caliber ammo for the same purpose, but I've never been enamored of that approach. Simpler to depress the top cartridge in the magazine and slip in a tailor-loaded cast bullet cartridge that I had complete control over for velocity, accuracy, etc.

Oh - one can take fish with a 22 as well - but I decline to elaborate - it does not involve shooting in the conventional sense and for goodness sake, don't shoot a 22 over water - can we say "skipping stone"?

I'd consider a 22 an expert's caliber for harvesting meat, not a first choice for most of us (myself included).

My 2 cents worth.

Tom

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#21769 - 11/23/03 11:05 PM Re: Don't under estimate the lowly 22
Anonymous
Unregistered


AyersTG,
I can see that you are indeed well learned on this subject. Let me clarify my point on choosing the 22 as a survival gun. First you have to look at the situation, if this is a SERE situation I want something as quite as possible, if it is natural or unnatural disaster I want something that I can efficiently and effectively provide food for my family, and again, quite would be good in many situations. If I am just lost in the woods I want something that will kill the game that is most prolific and leaving enough left for me to eat, and of course be light enough to always have with you. Lastly, would be self defense, which I would try to avoid at all costs. As I have already said the cost for the guns and ammo is very cheap compared to centerfire rifles, I could have several firearms and plenty of ammo with a fraction of the weight and price of even light centerfires.
Everywhere I have been in the states, and around the world for that matter, there is an abundance of small game and birds, not always the case with larger game. I would target these animals for sustenance over larger game, more plentiful ,easier to hunt and prepare and transport. The occasional big game that I dropped would be welcome also. 22 ammo is also the most widely availble everywhere I have ever been. We are not talking about sporting uses, this is a survival discussion, I would never hunt anything larger than a racoon with a 22lr under normal circumstances.

I have heard all about the problems with rimfire ammo being more prone to moisture and misfires. In 25 years of shooting untold thousands of rimfire rounds I would bet I have had less than 15 misfires, and those more likely with less than premium ammo. If you buy good ammo and keep it in original or better packaging I just have not seen any problem with moisture or misfires. As far as large carnivores go, how many do we have left, I don't think that is a concern in most places.

I also reload and have experimented with reduced loads, my favorite is blue dot loads in the 223. My experience has been that you don't get the level of accuracy, more meat damage to edible small game, and you have to keep up with 2 types of ammo. It is funny that we are having this discussion being that my hero has always been Elmer Keith who is famous for saying "Use enough Gun" and was a proponent of bigbores, he said that the 30-06 was too light for deer, but again my choices for survival would be different.

I have said what I have to say, if I had to pick just one gun, and I stand behind my decision. If I weren't restricted to just one gun my choices would be much different. Stay safe, Chris


Edited by WEB (11/23/03 11:36 PM)

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