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#217239 - 02/16/11 07:46 PM Re: Hypothermia Kit [Re: PureSurvival]
paramedicpete Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1920
Loc: Frederick, Maryland
Quote:
Whilst in Kenya I and 2 other team mates gave CPR to a 3rd team mate for over 12 hours waiting for a helo to come and carry out a casvac.


What was the outcome?

Pete

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#217252 - 02/16/11 08:21 PM Re: Hypothermia Kit [Re: dweste]
PureSurvival Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/09
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
On this occasion he lived, it was not due to a heart condition but from toxins from mutable hornet stings. We thought he was a goner but we worked on him through the night until a helo could get to us in the morning. In that time we managed to cut an LZ too so it was one hectic night. We had conversations on whether to give up or not but as a team mate we just could not give up.

As far as I am aware, the longest recorded time cpr has been given was for 3 days, carried out by a special forces team. That is what I was told some years ago, sadly i do not know the details.

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#217257 - 02/16/11 08:34 PM Re: Hypothermia Kit [Re: PureSurvival]
paramedicpete Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1920
Loc: Frederick, Maryland
I bow to your steadfastness that was quite a feat. Usually, the buildup of metabolic toxins and development of metabolic acidosis precludes a positive outcome over long periods of CPR without some type of pharmacological intervention.

Pete

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#217265 - 02/16/11 08:56 PM Re: Hypothermia Kit [Re: paramedicpete]
PureSurvival Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/09
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: paramedicpete
I bow to your steadfastness that was quite a feat. Usually, the buildup of metabolic toxins and development of metabolic acidosis precludes a positive outcome over long periods of CPR without some type of pharmacological intervention.

Pete


Thanks. It was not a case the medics arrived and gave him a shot of adrenalin and he was up and running around. He was left with some disability.

I do know if he was not a team mate for around 3 years but had been a stranger we would have gave up on him a long time before.

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#217266 - 02/16/11 09:15 PM Re: Hypothermia Kit [Re: paramedicpete]
PureSurvival Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/09
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: paramedicpete
Actually, I am not responding as a paramedic with ALS equipment/medication, but as a first line BLS responder. Cardiac arrest will occur post respiratory arrest. If the patient is not breathing adequately and the heart not circulating oxygenated blood sufficiently for adequate perfusion, cardiac arrest is inevitable. While rescue breathing may provide air exchange within the lungs, if the oxygenated blood is not circulated to heart, which requires oxygen for metabolic function, the heart muscle becomes irritable, leading to Vfib and eventual asystole.

Pete


I agree but hypothermia slows this process down a lot, hence the phrase "they aint dead until they are warm and dead"

Cardiac arrest is likely to occur below 25C. The coldest survival from hypothermia is 13.7C that is between 12c and 4C degrees below medical induced hypothermia.

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#217273 - 02/16/11 09:59 PM Re: Hypothermia Kit [Re: PureSurvival]
Teslinhiker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1393
Loc: Cranbrook BC (Finally)
Originally Posted By: PureSurvival

The fact is if one of your group is showing signs of hypothermia others in your group including yourself will have some degree of hypothermia too.


Do you have a reputable/verifiable link in regards to this?

No disrespect, however I find this difficult to believe (and I may be totally wrong). Over the years, I have witnessed quite a few people who were treated and or rescued off mountains etc due to mild and intermediate stages of hypothermia while others in our group...or other groups were all fine and were able to continue on for the rest of the day(s) without any signs of hypothermia.
_________________________
Earth and sky, woods and fields, lakes and rivers, the mountain and the sea, are excellent schoolmasters, and teach some of us more than we can ever learn from books.

John Lubbock

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#217276 - 02/16/11 10:08 PM Re: Hypothermia Kit [Re: dweste]
PureSurvival Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/09
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
look at any mountain leadership or search and rescue hypothermia training you will hear this. But if it is not true it is still good advise to follow, if one has gone down there is a high chance others will too.

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#217277 - 02/16/11 10:17 PM Re: Hypothermia Kit [Re: PureSurvival]
Teslinhiker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1393
Loc: Cranbrook BC (Finally)
Originally Posted By: PureSurvival
look at any mountain leadership or search and rescue hypothermia training you will hear this. But if it is not true it is still good advise to follow, if one has gone down there is a high chance others will too.


Thanks. That is interesting. I'll pose this question next weekend. A bunch of us are going out on a mountain snowshoeing clinic (depending on weather and avalanche conditions) at which there will be some SAR people attending who are always open to questions.
_________________________
Earth and sky, woods and fields, lakes and rivers, the mountain and the sea, are excellent schoolmasters, and teach some of us more than we can ever learn from books.

John Lubbock

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#217278 - 02/16/11 10:21 PM Re: Hypothermia Kit [Re: dweste]
PureSurvival Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/09
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
the 1964 Four Inns Walk demonstrated this quite nicely. 3 died and 4 rescued in critical condition and 211 had to be assisted off the hill.

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#217293 - 02/17/11 12:37 AM Re: Hypothermia Kit [Re: PureSurvival]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
Originally Posted By: PureSurvival
I am confused by 'carry a kit'.


Speed of complete response is my reason for putting a kit together.

I had not considered carrying self-heating consumables because I always have the ability to make fire several ways, usually a stove, at least one cooking vessel, and plenty of snacks and nutricious food that can be heated or cooked. But all that take time to find, set up, cook, etcetera.

I had not considered carrying a towel, dry clothes, heat packs, and a bivy in one package. I usually have all of that stuff but in different places in my gear. It would take time to find and deploy each of them.

I had not experienced how much slower thought processes and physical actions became when hypothermis began setting in. Response simply takes more time, and at some point I can see you could just run out of time.

This all is given more emphasis when you are alone, as am I often, or when you may need to depend on someone else who may not really know what to do.

So, now I am resolved that in situations where hypothermia is a serious risk due to weather or water, I will carry a hypothermia kit with all the stuff discussed in one dry bag labeled conspicuously "HYPOTHERMIA." I hope it never gets used, but whether I deploy it for myself or another, I want it to be quick and easy.

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