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#214876 - 01/13/11 04:22 PM Re: Usefullness of a signalmirror in the mountains [Re: Tjin]
ireckon Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
I have heard urban legends about people using tiny regular mirrors for visual signal, but don't have personal experience. For people considering tiny regular mirrors, please go out and practice trying to hit stuff at a long distance with a tiny regular mirror. For example, you could have a buddy drive a mile away. I'm not talking about hitting a building that's 100 yards away and easily viewable. Note that you can't see where the reflection is hitting if it's hitting at a far distance. It's really a guessing game if you don't have an aiming device.

If you have the opportunity to plan beforehand, I recommend getting a dedicated aimed mirror. My confidence is about 10 times higher with an aimed mirror. If you really need a mirror to save your life, you're going to be glad to have one. They're not that expensive and not heavy.

Originally Posted By: hikermor
Thinking about the general question, I believe there is one environment where a signal mirror might be less effective - at sea or a similar body of water, at least for other vessels at your level. This is because it is fairly common at sea to experience "mirror flashes" from other vessels. With this in mind, aim several flashes in succession at an intended target - that would be unusual and should get attention.


Even then, a signal mirror is unlikely to work. While on a beach a month ago, I was imagining someone stranded out there on a kayak. When I paid attention, I realized that there were thousands of strong reflections coming off the water. The reflections while on a boat were even worse. I couldn't imagine anybody detecting a mirror flash as being distinguishable from all the other reflections. If a mirror flash were noticed, it would be mostly dumb luck I think.
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#214877 - 01/13/11 04:22 PM Re: Usefullness of a signalmirror in the mountains [Re: Tjin]
ponder Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 367
Loc: American Redoubt
<Is a signalmirror usefull if you are above the snowline?>

Only if the person you want to signal knows where you are and why you are signaling.
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PonderosaSports.com
Horseshoe Bend, ID
American Redoubt
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#214879 - 01/13/11 04:31 PM Re: Usefullness of a signalmirror in the mountains [Re: hikermor]
MostlyHarmless Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 982
Loc: Norway
My sole and only problem with signal mirrors above the three line is that I am pretty pessimistic about conditions being favorable for using one when I need it. With my luck, the sun will be obscured by clouds wink

Above the three line, using bright colors is an excellent way to stand out and be noticed.


Still, having a signal mirror is still a good idea, and there are lots of scenarios where a mirror will be helpful. I do have the AMK mirror in my "slightly-larger-PSK" that usually goes with me anywhere except the shortest/most urban trips.

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#214881 - 01/13/11 05:00 PM Re: Usefullness of a signalmirror in the mountains [Re: MostlyHarmless]
Ann Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 42
Loc: Western Washington
For ultralighters an acceptable compromise between functionality and weight might be the "Featherweight Signal Mirror" weighing in at 1/3 ounce and with dimensions exceeding 3"x4". It's a metalized polymer, so obviously not ideal, but possibly better than other ultralight alternatives. No affiliation.

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#214885 - 01/13/11 05:16 PM Re: Usefullness of a signalmirror in the mountains [Re: Ann]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
There is another application for a mirror that makes it a bit easier to heft that extra ounce into your PSK. They are great for illuminating dark spaces.

I learned this while working with members of the Arizona state agency dealing with mine rescue. We needed to search some mine shafts and they showed up with highly specialized, technical equipment, the mirror from a medicine cabinet! It projected a very strong beam down into the shaft and lit it up far better than any lamp. I have since done the same thing with signal mirrors illuminating building interiors, cave mouths, dark overhangs, etc. Lots of throw, but no scatter whatever.....
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#214886 - 01/13/11 05:22 PM Re: Usefullness of a signalmirror in the mountains [Re: MostlyHarmless]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Originally Posted By: MostlyHarmless
My sole and only problem with signal mirrors above the three line is that I am pretty pessimistic about conditions being favorable for using one when I need it. With my luck, the sun will be obscured by clouds wink


I am from Arizona, now living in SoCal, so the sun almost always shines for me. But I understand (I saw this in print once, so it must be true) that a signal mirror still is somewhat useful in cloudy conditions.

We should hear from Rafowell soon. I am sure he will have some definitive comments.
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#214888 - 01/13/11 05:44 PM Re: Usefullness of a signalmirror in the mountains [Re: Tjin]
unimogbert Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 882
Loc: Colorado
I regard the aiming function of the mirror as critical to its usefulness.

My Dad and I experimented with a mirror once. I was partway up a 14'er and he was across the valley bottom in a meadow.
Using FRS radio he described where he was so I could aim to flash him while he video'd it. Range was about 4 miles (used GPS).

The 6th picture on this webpage shows it (poorly, using video capture)
http://coloradowreckchasing.com/YaleDC3/trips.html
CLICK ON THE PICTURE TO GET A HIGHER RESOLUTION LOOK

I found it quite difficult to keep the flash on him steadily enough that he could get it on the video. Minutes would go by without him getting flashed even as I struggled to aim it right where he was.
If I'd used a supported position it might have been better.
It was very educational how important the sighting system was.


Edited by unimogbert (01/13/11 05:46 PM)

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#214895 - 01/13/11 06:48 PM Re: Usefullness of a signalmirror in the mountains [Re: Tjin]
Hikin_Jim Offline
Sheriff
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 10/12/07
Posts: 1804
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: Tjin
i'm just not sure if the flash would attract attention, since everything is flashy in mountains.

I'm trying to shave off weight of mine equipment and every gram counts. So i'm really critical on everything i carry and it's usefullness.
Snow does reflect a lot of light, but not nearly to the degree that a mirror will. I don't know the real numbers, but let's say the snow reflects 15% of the sun's light. A mirror reflects 95%. Those aren't real numbers; I'm trying to illustrate the point that a mirror is vastly more efficient at reflecting the sun.

From afar, a mirror will appear as a very bright point, and as others have suggested, it's the flash that matters. If you wiggle the mirror the light from the mirror will appear to flash (much like a strobe light or camera flash) as it hits your intended target. In the wild, the reflection off of an artificial surface really stands out which is why military units go to such pains to subdue things. Notice that I said "as it hits your intended target". Aiming is critical, particularly if your target is farther away. Here is where a dedicated signal mirror will, if you'll pardon the pun, shine. A signal mirror with a proper sighting hole is far more likely to hit the target, particularly a distant target. They're very light and very compact. I like you watch every ounce (or gram if you prefer), but a signal mirror in my estimation is worth it.

It's my PLB, at 13 ounces (ouch!) that sometimes I'm tempted to leave behind.

HJ
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#214899 - 01/13/11 07:35 PM Re: Usefullness of a signalmirror in the mountains [Re: Hikin_Jim]
Glock-A-Roo Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 1076
Originally Posted By: Hikin_Jim
Snow does reflect a lot of light, but not nearly to the degree that a mirror will. I don't know the real numbers, but let's say the snow reflects 15% of the sun's light. A mirror reflects 95%. Those aren't real numbers; I'm trying to illustrate the point that a mirror is vastly more efficient at reflecting the sun.


Well put Jim. Sure, snow and ice are "bright" compared to trees in the overall amount of light they reflect, but it's nothing like the pinpoint flash of a mirror. Tjin, I would keep the mirror and look elsewhere for weight savings. And believe me, I am a "cut all the weight you can" kinda guy.

A reasonable compromise is to go with a proven, high quality plastic mirror like the ones from Adventure Medical or Rescue Reflectors. The glass mirrors are certainly brighter but the weight difference is real.

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#214905 - 01/13/11 10:14 PM Re: Usefullness of a signalmirror in the mountains [Re: Tjin]
KI6IW Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/23/05
Posts: 203
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, USA
What everyone else has said, and a mirror would be useful for first aid (such as something in your eye, or a facial cut).
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