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#213752 - 12/28/10 05:33 PM Re: Crossing a small flooded river in winter [Re: dweste]
paramedicpete Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1920
Loc: Frederick, Maryland
Quote:
My thought / hope was that there were some swift water rescue folks that could share an idea or two that might come in handy someday.


I am an active Swiftwater Technician and instructor, my advice remains unchanged: STAY PUT! Unless you want to become a body recovery, stay out of moving water.

Pete

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#213753 - 12/28/10 05:54 PM Re: Crossing a small flooded river in winter [Re: raptor]
paramedicpete Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1920
Loc: Frederick, Maryland
Quote:
Staying put won't work because it is not an option in this game


Moving water is not a “game”, nor should it be treated as such. I have been involved in numerous rescues and body recoveries, where the individual(s) underestimated the power of moving water. Don’t attempt to enter moving water. Without the proper Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) and training, it is a recipe for death. Even with the proper PPE and training, it is highly risky.

Pete

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#213754 - 12/28/10 06:23 PM Re: Crossing a small flooded river in winter [Re: paramedicpete]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
Originally Posted By: paramedicpete
[quote] Even with the proper PPE and training, it is highly risky.
Pete


Pete, all, we get that it is highly risky and that you do not want to find yourself in this situation. The question remains, if you do, what are your best strategies?

Is this like that Star Trek episode about the unwinnable battle scenario [Kobayashi Maru?] where the lesson is that sometimes the best you can do is die well?

Or is there a wily strategy or two that gives you prety good odds of survival?

I still think there are some Mensa members and candidates, engineers, math whizzes, and puzzle masters out there yet to chime in.

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#213755 - 12/28/10 06:25 PM Re: Crossing a small flooded river in winter [Re: dweste]
Leigh_Ratcliffe Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 1355
Loc: United Kingdom.
Originally Posted By: dweste
Scenario: Your only way home is your vehicle parked safely on high ground across a small river in a mixed oak and conifer forest. None of the trees near the river is more than 50 feet tall and most are much shorter.

The river has unexpectedly flooded to about 50 feet across, more than 15 feet deep in the middle, and is flowing faster than you can walk. Occasional large debris floats downstream, some hanging up on shore rocks.

You are alone.

Strategies that circumstances have forced you to reject: waiting it out, calling for help, hiking upstream, diverting the river, or using explosives [Blast].

You have 50 feet of paracord, and know how to make cordage from a wide variety of materials. You have your EDC and PSK, but no other camping or woodcraft tools.

What are the options you consider? Of those options, what do you try first?


Ok, now that my esdeemed fellow forumite's have finished slamming your head against a wall, whilst yelling No! No! No! , lets actually look at the question shall we?

Right, first point is that 99% of the time they are entirely correct. However, for the purposes of this exercise I am going to assume that staying where you are is certain death.

So you have got to cross the river. One way or another. That means a raft, or more accuratly a floatation device that will permit you to keep your upper body out of the water. The two killers in this situation are drowning and hypothermia. If that water is cold then the latter is the greater threat, simply because getting chilled will incapacitate you extremely rapidly. At that point its a toss up between drowning and heart failure.
So what you do is:
Construct a bundle raft of the required boyancy.
Collect a lot of fire making materials. You will need these on the other side to rewarm yourself.
Strip to bare skin. Th only thing that you should have on is your boots.
As far as possible make a waterproof bundle of your clothes. I for one always have a plastic bag of some description in my pocket (had too many supermarket bags go south on me at exactly the wrong moment). Lash it to the raft. The more insulation you have under you the better.
Take the raft and your pole walk out quickly but carefully untill you reach a depth that allows you to float your raft. That should be no more than waist deep.
Climb on and push off. A quick prayer might be in order at this point. Something to the effect that "Lord I know I'm an idiot, but my Missus and Kids don't deserve to loose me."
Swim your raft at an angle to the current. There is no way that you will be able to swim directly across. Nore can you fight the current so you have to go with it and angle your way across. Don't worry about trees in the water. They and you are moving at the same speed. Don't try to rush across. Won't work and all you will do is exhaust yourself. Keep going untill you reach the other side. You will probably wind up someway down stream. If you succeed (you probably won't) then as soon as you exit the water, start a fire and rewarm youself.

I am going to repeat: THIS IS A TACTIC OF DESPERATION. THIS IS A VERY BAD IDEA UNLESS YOU ARE LOOKING DEATH RIGHT IN THE EYE.
_________________________
I don't do dumb & helpless.

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#213756 - 12/28/10 06:28 PM Re: Crossing a small flooded river in winter [Re: dweste]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
Ah, a well-reasoned response. I can think of a few more possible steps to enhance survival chances, and anticipate some from the brain trust.

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#213757 - 12/28/10 06:35 PM Re: Crossing a small flooded river in winter [Re: paramedicpete]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
I just want to echo PP's sentiments. I have had training and experience in swift water rescue and it is a very dangerous enterprise, even with training. During the time I was active in SAR in Tucson, drowning was just behind falls as the number one cause of fatal injuries in that area. In the worst case, we lost nine to drowning in one incident. This is in desert country!

Teslin's pictures beautifully illustrate the more rational alternative. It is an immutable Law of Nature that streams become smaller as you ascend them (eventually)....
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

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#213758 - 12/28/10 06:51 PM Re: Crossing a small flooded river in winter [Re: dweste]
Teslinhiker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1418
Loc: Nothern Ontario
Originally Posted By: dweste


Pete, all, we get that it is highly risky and that you do not want to find yourself in this situation. The question remains, if you do, what are your best strategies?

Or is there a wily strategy or two that gives you prety good odds of survival?



The best wily strategy in this situation...considering you have the ability to contemplate crossing the river with only using the tools you have at your disposal then means you have the tools to stay put and to create shelter and fire. You can survive a lot longer this way and if by chance you do not, at least SAR has a much better chance at finding and recovering your body.

Not sure why you keep thinking and prodding for answers to a no win situation. Perhaps you need to expand upon your original post and explain why it is so important to cross that river...at any cost.
_________________________
Earth and sky, woods and fields, lakes and rivers, the mountain and the sea, are excellent schoolmasters, and teach some of us more than we can ever learn from books.

John Lubbock

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#213762 - 12/28/10 07:05 PM Re: Crossing a small flooded river in winter [Re: paramedicpete]
raptor Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/05/08
Posts: 288
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: paramedicpete
Moving water is not a “game”, nor should it be treated as such.


By "game" I meant this whole scenario. It is like a strategic game with very limited options. And staying put is not an option because you would break dweste's rules. I agree with everything you and other people said about staying put and danger of the crossing, but this time this is not about surviving in quite probable real world scenario but about surviving in a scenario where you have to cross the river or you will die. Therefore I called it a game.
For example you can imagine that a lava from nearby volcano is slowly closing in on you and you have to cross the river at this very place to escape.

In other words dweste forces us to think like McGyver - every possible idea counts.

On the other hand it's a good thing that you and others emphasize what should normally (in more probable scenario) be done, so when some less experienced people read it, they will get the warning.


Edited by raptor (12/28/10 07:20 PM)

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#213767 - 12/28/10 07:31 PM Re: Crossing a small flooded river in winter [Re: raptor]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Originally Posted By: raptor

For example you can imagine that a lava from nearby volcano is slowly closing in on you and you have to cross the river at this very place to escape.

At some point, like this one, the construction of scenarios loses its utility and becomes marginally productive. Mcgyver was a TV show, not a training film, right?

I'll let you know my solution when I have to deal with a raging river and a lava flow at the same time....In the movie, the lava flows into the river, drying it up, and I cross the now dry bed, discovering a diamond mine, winning the girl, the gold watch,and everything.
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

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#213768 - 12/28/10 07:54 PM Re: Crossing a small flooded river in winter [Re: dweste]
speedemon Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 04/13/10
Posts: 98
First thing that comes to my mind reading this is the Chattooga river (I go fishing there alot), which would most definitely be a suicide mission at flood stage. Even the shallow areas that used to be fords for the logging roads would be deadly at that point.

Even so, some sort of flotation is the only way. If possible, throw something attached to a rope to the other side and see if you can snag something. If so, and you hang on to that rope, the current will swing you to the other side rather quickly without you having to do any paddling.

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