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#212526 - 12/06/10 11:58 PM Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) [Re: TimDex]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
Unless your job reasonably requires you to carry a knife, consider an urban EDC that is as close to knife-free as you can stand. You just do not want to get caught carrying in some technicality or in any of the many zero tolerance zones.

My sole point is to try to let the other guy be the test case.

Yes, this is a limitation of certain freedoms. Yes, there will continue to be test cases and activity in the courts and legislatures. Yes, I fall on the side of clear and reasonable knife laws.

But unless it is your passion and you have the bankroll to play the game, I hope all you folks mostly just "read all about it!"

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#212528 - 12/07/10 12:23 AM Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) [Re: dweste]
ireckon Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: dweste
Unless your job reasonably requires you to carry a knife, consider an urban EDC that is as close to knife-free as you can stand. You just do not want to get caught carrying in some technicality or in any of the many zero tolerance zones.

My sole point is to try to let the other guy be the test case.

Yes, this is a limitation of certain freedoms. Yes, there will continue to be test cases and activity in the courts and legislatures. Yes, I fall on the side of clear and reasonable knife laws.

But unless it is your passion and you have the bankroll to play the game, I hope all you folks mostly just "read all about it!"


The problem is that the most of the knives in the pic are already about as neutered as possible for a practical knife. So, you might as well advise someone not to carry any blade at all.
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#212531 - 12/07/10 12:47 AM Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) [Re: TimDex]
TimDex Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 06/13/10
Posts: 56
Loc: New York State
My reaction to this, is that if you are in any doubt at all about your legal jeopardy, is that you should carry a Swiss Army Knife. There are some good substantial ones, and I think any judge and jury would laugh any case out of court. I would hope a prosecutor would just not prosecute a case against someone with a SAK.

It's a joke I know, but I guess you have to deal with fools such as they are until the law gets clarified.

Tim

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#212533 - 12/07/10 01:10 AM Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) [Re: Paul810]
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1384
Quote:
According to the way NYC interprets their law, the knives pictures ARE considered gravity knives/switchblades.

That's the whole issue here. People are buying and carrying the typical one-handed opening locking knives that are sold all over the place, then getting arrested in NYC for carrying a switchblade/gravity knife. Guys that carry locking razor blades for their work are getting arrested and charged.


Can someone in NYC confirm this? I lived there for more than a decade, carrying various types of knives, and even had occasions to compare knives with cops. Neither I nor any other knife-carrying New Yorkers I knew got arrested for this. Some of these people were carrying clearly tactical knives barely within the legal limit (as I understood it). Now as I write this I recall, years ago, checking with a police officer, who clearly knew the difference between a folder and a gravity knife or a switchblade. But that was ten yeas ago.

I am inclined to think that the person who wrote the caption for the picture could not tell a legal folder from a switchblade. Either that, or the image was "for illustrative purposes only." (BTW, unless I'm mistaken, I see one or two switchblades in the picture.)

-- Da Bing

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#212540 - 12/07/10 01:45 AM Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) [Re: Bingley]
Russ Online   content
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5029
Loc: SOCAL
Originally Posted By: Bingley
. . .Can someone in NYC confirm this? I lived there for more than a decade, carrying various types of knives, and even had occasions to compare knives with cops. . . .
That was then, this is now.
Quote:
. . .District Attorney Cyrus R. Vance Jr. of Manhattan announced in June that his office had pressured retail stores that were selling illegal knives to remove them from their shelves, forfeit profits from the knives made over the last four years and help finance a campaign to educate people against illegal knives.

¶ “What makes these knives so dangerous is the ease with which they can be concealed and brandished,” Mr. Vance said of the illegal switchblades and gravity knives, which require a wrist flip to open instead of a switchblade’s spring, that were bought by undercover agents.

¶ Mr. Vance’s offensive drew the ire of the American Knife and Tool Institute, which issued an “action alert” and offered to assist New York retailers and individuals charged with knife violations with their legal defenses. . . .

Regardless of how we feel, Vance is the DA in Manhattan and he's pushing this crusade. We need push back to ensure it's not a done deal.

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#212541 - 12/07/10 01:52 AM Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) [Re: TimDex]
ireckon Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
I just had to see a pic of this DA who's causing headaches.
http://manhattanda.org/officeoverview/bio.shtml

Quote:

Biography of Cyrus R. Vance, Jr.

Cyrus R. Vance, Jr., became District Attorney of New York County on January 1, 2010. Mr. Vance is a recognized leader in criminal justice reform and proposed a compelling vision for moving the District Attorney's Office forward, with a focus on crime prevention.

Mr. Vance began his legal career as an Assistant District Attorney in the Manhattan DA's Office during the high-crime era of the 1980’s. As an ADA, Mr. Vance handled cases involving murder, organized crime, political corruption, and white-collar crime. After leaving the DA’s Office, Mr. Vance and his wife Peggy McDonnell moved to Seattle, where Mr. Vance co-founded McNaul Ebel Nawrot Helgren & Vance, PLLC, which under his joint leadership became one of the pre-eminent litigation firms in the Northwest. During his time in Seattle, Mr. Vance taught trial advocacy as an adjunct professor at Seattle University School of Law.

Mr. Vance returned to New York in 2004 and became a partner at Morvillo, Abramowitz, Grand, Iason, Anello & Bohrer, P.C. Mr. Vance is a Fellow of the American College of Trial Lawyers. He served by appointment of the Governor of New York as a member of the New York State Appellate Division, First Department, Judicial Screening Panel, and was a member of the New York State Commission on Sentencing Reform. Mr. Vance previously served as a member of the Criminal Justice Council of the New York City Bar Association, the Federal Bar Council, and the New York Council of Defense Lawyers. He was a member of the Boards of Directors of the Fund for Modern Courts, the Sargent Shriver National Center on Poverty Law, and the Alzheimer's Drug Discovery Foundation.

Mr. Vance was born and raised in Manhattan, and is a graduate of Yale University and Georgetown University Law School. He and his wife live on the Upper West Side, and have two children, both currently in college.
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#212543 - 12/07/10 02:00 AM Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) [Re: Russ]
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1384
Originally Posted By: Russ

That was then, this is now.
[quote]. . .District Attorney Cyrus R. Vance Jr. of Manhattan announced in June that his office had pressured retail stores that were selling illegal knives to remove them from their shelves, forfeit profits from the knives made over the last four years and help finance a campaign to educate people against illegal knives.

¶ “What makes these knives so dangerous is the ease with which they can be concealed and brandished,” Mr. Vance said of the illegal switchblades and gravity knives, which require a wrist flip to open instead of a switchblade’s spring, that were bought by undercover agents.


But, my friend, this is no different from before! Switchblades, gravity knives, and assisted opening knives were/are illegal to carry. (I never looked into the legality of ownership or selling those knives.) The quote doesn't say anything about folders. I'm no lawyer, but it seems they might just be enforcing laws that were already in the books. (Of course, maybe it's not illegal to sell, purchase, or own these switchblades and gravity knives, though it's illegal to carry them, but the authorities just want to take them out of circulation altogether.)

The article doesn't seem to have bothered with explaining legal vs. illegal knives! Otherwise why are we all so confused? Anyway, it would seem to me the best route is not to overreact, but know the local laws and play it safe. (I would point out that a Swiss Army Knife is not always a safe bet.) Don't get legal advice from a bunch of guys online either.

-- Da Bing


Edited by Bingley (12/07/10 02:01 AM)

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#212544 - 12/07/10 02:12 AM Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) [Re: Bingley]
Russ Online   content
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5029
Loc: SOCAL
Bing -- I'm not confused. The difference is the DA, not the laws and not the knives. The DA is on a campaign and redefining a switchblade/gravity blade. Knives we have been using and which would be legal in any other jurisdiction are being referred to by a term which makes them illegal -- even if they are not. Political posturing IMO.

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#212550 - 12/07/10 02:41 AM Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) [Re: TimDex]
ireckon Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
Bing, California has similar language in their restriction of knives. However, it's widely understood that all the folders sold at the Walmart and Big5 stores in California can be carried concealed legally. There is a defined distinction between switch blades (and the like) and legal assisted opening knives. The difference is defined in the Penal Code and further defined in the case law.

In this New York situation, I believe it is the DA that is the difference. I believe the DA would get schooled in court, but in the mean time the DA gets to up his stats on arrests in order to advance politically. "Hey, the new DA surely is making us safe with the increased arrests." If he later gets schooled in court, it will only make him look even better politically because that would simply mean more press for his cause.
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#212551 - 12/07/10 02:56 AM Re: State laws on knives (NYT article) [Re: ireckon]
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1384
Alright, I did a bit more research, and it looks like the American Knife and Tool Institute has some facts:

http://www.akti.org/action/new-york-city-knife-confiscation-case-2010

See especially:

http://www.akti.org/action/call-to-actio...-from-retailers

Let me quote: "What the DA is not telling the public is that his office’s interpretation of a gravity knife is ANY folding knife that can be opened with one hand – no matter how difficult." None of the news articles make this point plain, leading most people (like me) to think that we'd be OK with our folders.

It seems that this is a way for the DA to score some political points for his next election, and most of all get millions of dollars from retailers. I doubt the average policeman on the street is all that concerned about little knives, but it would be advisable to exercise caution lest you be made an example. We can write all the letters we want, but I suspect money talks in this situation, and those million dollar fines talk loud.

Good thing the DA is on the side of the law. He would have done well on the other side, too.


-- Da Bing

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