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#210784 - 11/03/10 01:21 AM Re: Cities Running Out of Water [Re: ironraven]
Richlacal Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 778
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Another part of The Colorado River is Diverted into Lake Mead,Nevada of which feeds All of Las Vegas,Clark county & Nye county,Nevada,Another part is Diverted to Arizona,The Whole State of Arizona,in fact!Ironraven,You done Barfin',Yet?lol!Remember,Our Great Leader of This site,Makes his Home in The Beautiful State of Arizona!

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#210788 - 11/03/10 02:39 AM Re: Cities Running Out of Water [Re: paramedicpete]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
620 gallons of water fall on the roof of a building that has a 1000 sf footprint when one inch of rain falls. (0.62 gallons per sqft)

If you have a 2000 sf home and a 500 sf garage, that totals 2500 sf and can produce 1,550 gallons of water. If you get 15" of rain per year, that's 23,250 gallons per year, almost 16 gallons of water per person per day for a family of four. Seattle averages 37" of rain a year, 57,350 gallons.

An above-ground swimming pool with a 15' diameter (4' deep) holds about 4,646 gallons. An oval in-ground pool 18x33' = 12,267 gallons. Keep in mind that you don't need a tank that holds your entire annual water needs, as the rain falls periodically, and you're using it regularly, so you mainly need to supply your family through the longest usual dry spell of the year.

Most people let it rain well for about 15 minutes before they start collecting, to clean off the roof. Rainwater is 20 times cleaner than the cleanest groundwater -- people panic that it hasn't been purifed, but they'll drink water from their well without testing it for anything but a reasonable fecal coliform count (if that).

A family of four with a 2-gallon toilet tank will flush away almost 12,000 gallons of fresh drinking-quality water per year, almost half the total you could collect in SoCal with 2500 sf of roof. If that's not waste, nothing is. If you haven't already, read Joseph Jenkin's detailed free online guide The Humanure Handbook

There are two books by Art Ludwig, one for rainwater collection and one for intelligent greywater use that everyone should read:

Water Storage: Tanks, Cisterns, Aquifers, and Ponds For Domestic Supply, Fire and Emergency Use (includes directions on how to make ferrocement water tanks).

The New Create an Oasis with Greywater: Choosing, Building and Using Greywater Systems — Includes Branched Drains

He has other books on his site: http://oasisdesign.net/

Sue

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#210792 - 11/03/10 03:39 AM Re: Cities Running Out of Water [Re: Susan]
Richlacal Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 778
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Wherever you have Acid rain,Dirty water will be coming from the sky,So one would not be collecting in those locations!I think it was El Nino that,Actually gave So.Cal, The Statistical 14" of rain,Other than that,It rained last Thursday night into Friday,1st Real Rain,I've seen in Months!It would take a Solid Week of Rain,to Clean the Roofs off,Here in The Dirty Basin,Probably longer for The Filthy&Smoggy San Fernando Valley!Anyone who's lived here Know's,It's Very Rare to have,Even a Solid day of Rain!Without an Infrastructure in Semi-Decent condition,It's not too practical,for everyone to collect water! But it Certainly is a Great idea! I say No Running water for Jail/Prisons,That would save trillions of gallons,Alone!

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#210798 - 11/03/10 08:32 AM Re: Cities Running Out of Water [Re: paramedicpete]
adam2 Offline
Addict

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 474
Loc: Somerset UK
As posted above, even in arid locations, many thousands of gallons may be collected from rain.
If renewing or repairing roofs, avoid materials that taint the water.
Devices are available that divert the first XX gallons of rooffall to waste (or an oil drum etc.) and then pass the remainder to a large tank. This results in much cleaner water since the initial flow is liable to contain dirt, leaves, dead insects, and bird droppings.

If the collected water is acidic due to acid rain, this may be neutralised by placeing lumps of chalk or limestone in the tank, or by use of a cement tank.

If a flush toilet is used normally, it would be prudent to be prepared with a composting toilet or other water free system, for emergency.

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#210813 - 11/03/10 02:09 PM Re: Cities Running Out of Water [Re: paramedicpete]
TeacherRO Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/11/05
Posts: 2574
Move.

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#210817 - 11/03/10 02:31 PM Re: Cities Running Out of Water [Re: paramedicpete]
CANOEDOGS Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 1853
Loc: MINNESOTA
teacher is right..in the long run people will have to move back to the rust belt states.

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#210818 - 11/03/10 02:32 PM Re: Cities Running Out of Water [Re: TeacherRO]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
Quote:
Move.


There is evidence to suggest this is what the Mayans did, well the ones that survived did. wink

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_Maya_collapse

I guess the time constant for any civilisation is based on the rate of unsustainability. Technological advances may delay the abandonment of certain overpopulated areas somewhat but you if you cannot square the circle then disaster is sure to arise, it just takes time.

The abandonment of a city like Los Angeles, would be just as quick as say New Orleans was if the taps ran dry. i.e. about a week.



Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (11/03/10 02:33 PM)

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#210824 - 11/03/10 04:25 PM Re: Cities Running Out of Water [Re: Susan]
desolation Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 01/21/10
Posts: 60
Loc: Sonoma County, CA
Originally Posted By: Susan

If you have a 2000 sf home and a 500 sf garage, that totals 2500 sf and can produce 1,550 gallons of water. If you get 15" of rain per year, that's 23,250 gallons per year, almost 16 gallons of water per person per day for a family of four. Seattle averages 37" of rain a year, 57,350 gallons.


Rainwater collection is a wonderful idea (seriously). If you have space. And money. A ~22,000 gallon galvanized tank will run you $18,000 to $20,000 just for the tank (no foundation or install). It'll be about 19 feet in diameter and around 12 feet tall. A ~55,000 gallon galvanized tank will run you $34,000 just for the tank. It'll take up 24 feet diameter and be around 15 feet tall. Only you'd need a much rounder and lower tanks to get your roof water into it. And a pump to get water pressure out of it. And some form of sand filter at a minimum for filtration. And a big gun to keep your neighbors away from that big silver tank full of cool water.

Long term: move is the option with highest survivability. Climate change will generally make those cities with poor water availability worse off.

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#210825 - 11/03/10 04:36 PM Re: Cities Running Out of Water [Re: paramedicpete]
desolation Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 01/21/10
Posts: 60
Loc: Sonoma County, CA
Originally Posted By: paramedicpete
Do you know if LA acquires any water through the use of desalinization plants? If not, why not?


Pete


It's expensive. But it's slowly becoming more economical as water importation costs are rising.

Ranges for capital costs for reverse osmosis are $700 to $900 per cubic meter to $1,300 to $2,200 per cubic meter. Ranges in reported O&M costs for reverse osmosis are from $0.45 to $0.92 per cubic meter. 60 percent of the O&M costs are energy costs. 3 to 3.5 kWh per cubic meet of water is used at a production rate of approximately 40 percent of the salty water being turned to fresh water. Somebody smarter than me can figure out how much it would cost to build a facility to treat enough water for LA. grin

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#210844 - 11/03/10 10:31 PM Re: Cities Running Out of Water [Re: paramedicpete]
Art_in_FL Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2432
There are some vary sound reasons why towns and cities sprouted up around natural sources of fresh water. LA and Las Vegas were both quite small communities until fresh water was directed toward them through massive engineering projects. If/when those projects stop working water will become a massive, critical, lethal issue.

It also has to be noted that as the world climate warms, and climate bands shift, the Midwest and West are becoming dryer. Places that enjoyed adequate rainfalls are seeing less total rain. What rain they are getting is coming as torrential rains that runs off instead of soaking in. With drought being followed by flood as the massive rainfall overload the waterways.

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