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#209860 - 10/18/10 06:59 PM Re: How to find the truth? [Re: dweste]
ireckon Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1613
Loc: Northern California
Generally, "science" is probably the best answer to the original question. Here are some examples of how scientific truths may be explained to kids:

-The area inside of a circle equals the radius times half the circumference, until somebody proves otherwise. As far as I know, nobody has proven otherwise.

-The earth rotates around the sun, until somebody proves otherwise. As far as I know, nobody has proven otherwise.

-The earth was flat until somebody proved otherwise. The discovery of the earth not being flat involved an application of the scientific method. By the way, that's a good example of why a young scientist should question everything.
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#209873 - 10/18/10 08:21 PM Re: How to find the truth? [Re: ireckon]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
Science does not seem the be-all or end-all of human effort, but it is a handy tool when its limitations are properly understood. If interested see the thread just started on truth in the hierachy of information [or whatever I called it exactly].

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#209874 - 10/18/10 08:26 PM Re: How to find the truth? [Re: dweste]
quick_joey_small Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 412
Loc: UK


Dagny wrote:
'I would teach them to not rely on Wikipedia'

Evidence please?

qjs

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#209879 - 10/18/10 09:02 PM Re: How to find the truth? [Re: Byrd_Huntr]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2184
Loc: Deep south... Carolina
Originally Posted By: Byrd_Huntr


For me and many like me, your question has already been answered and the answer has withstood fire, sword, and the test of time:

"Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His rightousness..."

With respect, I'm sure the ancient Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Pagans, Native Americans, etc, etc, etc would have used the same argument for their version of a supreme being/beings/God/Gods. My Zeus can beat up your Ra can beat up your ... you get the picture.

It hasn't stood the test of time. It too is an ever changing target. After all, Jesus and his disciples wrote down scripture, the early Catholic church chose which books to use to form the basis of our modern day Bible (probably losing all sorts of relevance in translation from Aramaic to Greek to Latin to whatever language you want to read it in today). Then came the Protastent reformation and the tendrils of non-Catholic Christianity. Let's not forget (while you're quoting Biblical scripture) that the Jews and Muslims are also folks that believe in the same God (and look where those views have lead us). And, oh yeah, every other active and not-so-active religion out there that aren't based on that particular deity.

Anyway, I'm sure this'll be censored. Religious views have a way of spiraling out of control on forums and inciting all sorts of ill will.

The point of my post though, is you haven't really answered the original post's question (though neither have I): how to FIND truth. You can find a lot, but being spiritually in tune doesn't help one pass a multiple choice test, skip a polygraph test or come up with the laws of physics (I mean, heck, the Catholic Church's official position was that Galileo was wrong for like 300 years - not exactly a great track record!)

Edit: Please don't read this as condescening or trying to be sarcastic (except perhaps my last line, but it's OK! I'm a Catholic!). I'm trying to make a logical argument to a viewpoint that tends to refute one's version of logic with another - hence the never ending cycle and above mentioned spiraling.


Edited by MDinana (10/18/10 09:05 PM)

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#209889 - 10/18/10 11:14 PM Re: How to find the truth? [Re: ireckon]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3077
Quote:
The area inside of a circle equals the radius times half the circumference, until somebody proves otherwise. As far as I know, nobody has proven otherwise.


pi is a consequence of Linear Euclidian geometric logic. The Universe is non Euclidian as demonstrated by experimental relativism, so although it is a good approximation to the purest form of logical thinking with pi being the ratio of the diameter to a circular circumference this isn't necessarily true in a real universe or multiverse (what ever a multiverse actually means)

http://www.fisica.net/relatividade/the_n...cott_walter.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirac_large_numbers_hypothesis

They all end up playing Numberwang whistle

Quote:
The earth rotates around the sun, until somebody proves otherwise. As far as I know, nobody has proven otherwise.


Only if your a mathematical reductionist, there is plenty of observational evidence to suggest otherwise. Galileo Galilei thought he was being clever. Nearly cost him his life wink



Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (10/18/10 11:34 PM)

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#209893 - 10/19/10 12:40 AM Re: How to find the truth? [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
ireckon Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1613
Loc: Northern California
Am, you showed how everything should be questioned. On the other hand, the context of this thread is teaching kids. When I think about a kid discovering the "truth" about the area inside of a circle, I think about a kid taking out a piece of string and a ruler and performing experiments. If we're going to debate the "truth" about the area inside of a circle by using higher level math, then kids will remain confused and will happily go back to their texting.
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#209895 - 10/19/10 01:18 AM Re: How to find the truth? [Re: dweste]
MoBOB Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 1214
Loc: here
I cannot answer as eloquently as some, but I will try to give my view.

Truth is everywhere. Truth is in all that we experience. The problem is how do see (perceive, discern) what it is? It is through both the processes of science and the vitality of one's personal belief system. I truly believe they need to be used without mutual exclusion. With all that said, remember that we all filter things differently. Hence, the beauty of the human condition.

Now, what do we do with the kids? Teach them to respectfully question and investigate things. I agree with the poster who says their young children trust him with truth. As they grow older is when we teach them to investigate.

This is interesting because of the conversation I had with my daughter as when I dropped her off for her freshman year in college. As a warning this has to do with religious beliefs (truths). I told her that she now has to decide whether of not to continue in the tradition she was raised in or to go another way. I encouraged her to make her faith her own. She cannot live mine because it is, well; mine. I asked her to talk with me about any other experiences she had. This was just so I could see how she was investigating and processing the experiences. I wanted to ensure the lines of communication stayed open.

All of that to say this: Regardless of the truths being sought, it requires a willingness to be open to new and different ideas. Along the way the truths we encounter will challenge or confirm what we already hold to be true.

I am not sure if this advanced the conversation at all, but I feel better for having contributed. And that is the truth.
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"Its not a matter of being ready as it is being prepared" -- B. E. J. Taylor

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#209903 - 10/19/10 03:31 AM Re: How to find the truth? [Re: dweste]
Richlacal Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 778
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
All this Writing of Science,Religion,Etc. & Not a One Has even Mentioned,Darwin! Sorry Sheriff,The Devil made me do it!

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#209904 - 10/19/10 03:38 AM Re: How to find the truth? [Re: MDinana]
Byrd_Huntr Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 1145
Loc: Land O' Lakes & Rivers - MN, U...
Originally Posted By: MDinana
[quote=Byrd_Huntr]

For me and many like me, your question has already been answered and the answer has withstood fire, sword, and the test of time:

"Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His rightousness..."


"With respect, I'm sure the ancient Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Pagans, Native Americans, etc, etc, etc would have used the same argument for their version of a supreme being/beings/God/Gods. My Zeus can beat up your Ra can beat up your ... you get the picture."

[i] [/i] We, as humans, have limited ability to understand. Mans innate knowledge of the sprirtual has led to many variations, and some have used this as a pathway to power over their fellow man. The details of the tradition don't really matter here, only that one knows there is a higher power. That realization forms a matrix for all other actions, and informs the search for truth.

"It hasn't stood the test of time. It too is an ever changing target. After all, Jesus and his disciples wrote down scripture, the early Catholic church chose which books to use to form the basis of our modern day Bible (probably losing all sorts of relevance in translation from Aramaic to Greek to Latin to whatever language you want to read it in today). Then came the Protastent reformation and the tendrils of non-Catholic Christianity."

There are many ancient holy scriptures. For the purposes of this discussion on 'truth' I submit that it doesn't matter which one you choose. The belief in a supreme being informs the search for truth.

Let's not forget (while you're quoting Biblical scripture) that the Jews and Muslims are also folks that believe in the same God (and look where those views have lead us). And, oh yeah, every other active and not-so-active religion out there that aren't based on that particular deity.

All of the major religions have a set of beliefs and teachings that are peaceful, but those can be perverted in big ways by those in power, and little ways by others. During the Crusades, the Christian religion was used as an excuse for young disinherited French noblemen to pillage the Middle East and amass personal fortunes through war. The Knights Templar started out as 'warrior monks' but became perverted by wealth. King Philip later had them murdered and demonized over money that he owed them. Similar perversions of religion are being used now by a small group of Muslim leaders and fanatics to achieve a political goal. What is ignored in all this is the millions of quiet Muslims, Christians, Jews, and Bhuddist etc that use the ancient philosophies of their religious traditions to inform their life's decisions and teach their children about truth.

Anyway, I'm sure this'll be censored. Religious views have a way of spiraling out of control on forums and inciting all sorts of ill will.

You won't get that reaction from me; we are sitting at the campfire here and talking about an important topic. I'm a little older and I have spent a lot of time in the woods thinking about things. I would no more get angry at someone who didn't share my spiritual views than I would at a person who disagrees with my choice of shot size for grouse hunting late season. I would hope that others would be tolerant also.

The point of my post though, is you haven't really answered the original post's question (though neither have I): how to FIND truth. You can find a lot, but being spiritually in tune doesn't help one pass a multiple choice test, skip a polygraph test or come up with the laws of physics (I mean, heck, the Catholic Church's official position was that Galileo was wrong for like 300 years - not exactly a great track record!)

I believe I did answer the original post, if not in so many words. To find truth (or anything for that matter) you have to look in the right place, persist as long as you must, all the while praying for the wisdom to recognize it. Many great men and women spent their lives seeking truth, secure in their traditions and their faith that they were, indeed, looking in the right place......

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The man got the powr but the byrd got the wyng

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#209905 - 10/19/10 04:05 AM Re: How to find the truth? [Re: Byrd_Huntr]
Richlacal Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 778
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Hey! 3& 1/2"-#4 shot,& It's Oct.18th for Ruffed Grouse?Someone has eaten too much,Squeaky Cheese,lol! Kinda' like,Charles Darwin Praying that,He find,What he was looking for! smile

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