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#201566 - 05/10/10 12:57 PM Re: I'm Going to Need Stronger Locks [Re: sybert777]
paramedicpete Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1920
Loc: Frederick, Maryland
Sybert777, if I remember correctly you are 16 years old. I hope your parents have assessed your maturity level and insisted you take the appropriate gun safety and home protection courses before allowing you to maintain a loaded handgun next to your bed.

Pete

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#201571 - 05/10/10 03:35 PM Re: I'm Going to Need Stronger Locks [Re: Art_in_FL]
MartinFocazio Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 2203
Loc: Bucks County PA
Originally Posted By: Art_in_FL
Rattling around the web, researching rescue tools, I came across

New York City Fire Department
FORCIBLE ENTRY REFERENCE GUIDE. December, 2006. TECHNIQUES AND PROCEDURES:

http://www.vententersearch.com/supplemental/fdny_fe.pdf


Oh, that's the stuff they TEACH. I've seen what they DO here in NYC - suffice it to say that they don't particularly care for how much your paint is scratched. Most of these techniques are intended to minimize damage/repair costs - the through-lock techniques are a good example.
Forget the DOOR - you take out a WALL if you need to get in, and there's very little a saw and a hydraulic cutter/ram can't defeat.
This little gem is a - literal - lifesaver: http://www.botachtactical.com/hurato.html

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#201575 - 05/10/10 04:31 PM Re: I'm Going to Need Stronger Locks [Re: MartinFocazio]
paramedicpete Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1920
Loc: Frederick, Maryland
Quote:
This little gem is a - literal - lifesaver: http://www.botachtactical.com/hurato.html


Yea with that little tool you can clear a entire apartment floor in no time.

Pete

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#201577 - 05/10/10 05:09 PM Re: I'm Going to Need Stronger Locks [Re: paramedicpete]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
This is hilarious. So people are willing to spend hundreds to secure an oustide entry door, but still have regular old glass windows, or better still, live in a stick-built home, like most houses in this country. I can almost walk through an outside wall into a stick built home. Most stick built homes could have no windows or doors at all, and I could still get into them in less than a minute!

Residential security is a facade. You want security, add a security system, and not just any system, but a hard wired, fully monitored, independent power supplied, loud wailing internal siren that will wake the whole neighborhood but can't be gotten to easily type setup. Better still, add a couple of 8 round pump shotguns with speed loaders full of #4 buckshot with a combat veteran behind it and now you've got security!

Burt Gummer's compound was just about right. His only problem was not reinforcing on all sides, including top and bottom. I need a rec room like his.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#201581 - 05/10/10 06:10 PM Re: I'm Going to Need Stronger Locks [Re: benjammin]
KG2V Offline

Veteran

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 1371
Loc: Queens, New York City
Another one you'll see FDNY use ALL the time - they have what is basiclly a chainsaw that has a 12" or so abrasive cutoff blade (they also have chainsaws and the circular saw with regular saw blades)

The want in, they have no qualms about cutting their way in. Lets face it - they probably respond to a bunch of "taxpayer" (small storefront) fires every day, and there are roll down steel gates with locks - out come the saw - zip, there goes the lock. I've actually seen them throw a chain around something that needed to come down, throw it around the bumper of the engine, and yank
_________________________
73 de KG2V
You are what you do when it counts - The Masso
Homepage: http://www.thegallos.com
Blog: http://kg2v.blogspot.com

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#201584 - 05/10/10 07:26 PM Re: I'm Going to Need Stronger Locks [Re: KG2V]
thseng Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 900
Loc: NW NJ
I think the quote goes something like this:
"No obstacle is effective for long unless it is kept under observation."
_________________________
- Tom S.

"Never trust and engineer who doesn't carry a pocketknife."

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#201592 - 05/10/10 08:29 PM Re: I'm Going to Need Stronger Locks [Re: thseng]
sybert777 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/15/09
Posts: 300
Loc: 62208
Pete, I have a F.O.I.D. card, allowed by my parents. I have taken several safety courses and even a tactical course set up by my uncle John. I can now draw, cock, aim, and hit a 10" target at 50 ft. I am working on 75 or 100 ft. but all in under 3 seconds! I am not the type of person that thinks "Aw, loo at that poor homeless man, he wants a dollar." I am the utmost paranoid! I have owned, used, cleaned, and disassembled many fire arms in my lifetime. I am glad that you are worried but, I have taken all the reccomended courses and have alot of hands on experience. Hopefully I never have to use any weapon on anyone but, if TSHTF I am ready, up in arms!

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#201619 - 05/11/10 02:56 AM Re: I'm Going to Need Stronger Locks [Re: sybert777]
Art_in_FL Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2432
Quote:
This is hilarious. So people are willing to spend hundreds to secure an oustide entry door, but still have regular old glass windows, or better still, live in a stick-built home, like most houses in this country. I can almost walk through an outside wall into a stick built home. Most stick built homes could have no windows or doors at all, and I could still get into them in less than a minute!


In some cases that might not be an exaggeration. Entire subdivisions in Florida have been built with Therm-ply, essentially heavy-duty cardboard sandwiched by aluminum foil, as the structural sheathing. This is covered in vinyl siding which has to be nailed into the framing as you can't nail to Thermo-ply. On the interior there is the cheapest 1/2" drywall available. In keeping with the overall outstanding quality the vinyl was poorly installed so that considerable amounts of rain ran inside the wall.

Good thing rain and moisture is never an issue in Florida. <dripping sarcasm>

After a couple of years the fiberglass insulation was soaked, the Thermo-ply had soaked up water and turned to wet cardboard with de-laminated aluminum foil, the vapor barrier had sagged and the drywall was soggy. In spots the framing had begun to rot and carpenter ants had moved in. I literally saw a carpenter shove his hand through an exterior wall. Hardest part was getting his hand through the siding. I suspect that in the worse spots you could jump through the wall as long as you were careful to avoid the framing and wiring.

On the other hand even a house sheathed with OSB would be pretty tough to get through without tools. Plywood harder still as it has more impact resistance. I have knocked holes in OSB I could put my hand through with a half-dozen swings of a hammer. With plywood I go for the saw.

If you use a chainsaw, preferably one with a carbide toothed chain like many fir departments use, you can cut a door pretty quick. Faster still if you avoid the framing. Backing a truck through a corner works also.

Funny thing is entries through the wall is possible but it remains exceptionally rare for burglars. Most go through a door or window. A lot simply walk in through an unlocked door. Even firemen tend to like doors more than windows. Walking in, and evacuation, is far easier through a door. Thieves usually realize that they are vulnerable while climbing in or out of a window. They also know that he sound of breaking glass is more likely to cause a bystander to investigate and/or call police than someone shouting 'fire'.

Also windows are a bit different than doors. On one side glass is always vulnerable. On the other windows are usually harder to physically get to, and because they aren't opened as often as doors they are in some ways easier to reinforce. High and narrow windows can be too much trouble to mess with. Bars on the outside and Plexiglas on the inside slow down even the firemen. The Plexiglas on the inside is an issue for burglars because you have to break the glass before you get to it. There are also high-tech films that make glass hard to get through.

The rough opening can be reinforced much the same way the door opening was with plywood surrounding and aluminum plates. Wind rated windows have much tougher than the typical frames. Screwed at frequent intervals with long screws through a metal plate and deep into the surrounding framing the window is resistant to being blown or bashed in.

The stops on windows can be replaced by aluminum extrusions that are screwed all the way into the rough framing.

Of course there are rules as to what and how you can do things. Most codes require that at least one window in each bedroom be large enough to allow a fireman to get through. Firemen need to get in and you need to be able to get out. The idea here is not to live in a bunker. Rather it is to harden those openings most likely to be attacked by burglars and to match the level of security to the risk. A back door or ground-level window that opens onto a blind ally, where any burglar has privacy and time to work on it, needs to be tougher than one that is immediately visible from a busy street.

The idea that a security system or gun is good protection overlook several things: Most response security systems are easy to trigger if nobody is home. It is not unheard of for burglars to trigger an alarm repeatedly so the address gets a reputation for false alarms. By the third or forth time people ignore the noise. Some organized burglars know the response times of the police and work fast to get in and out before police can arrive.

Even the 'armed response' security organizations are not what many think. Most of the armed responders make just a bit over minimum wage. No rational human being will rush to a potential shootout for short money. Better to delay and arrive after the bad guys are gone. Then it is just a matter of filling out paperwork. Getting a call is cause to have another cup of coffee.

Even if you have a gun the odds are you won't be home when they try to break in. Experienced burglars work hard to make sure nobody is home. Often waiting for people to leave. Once you're gone that gun you were using to protect your property is a prime target for the thief.

Of course one of the biggest ways to maintain security is to limit the motivation of any potential burglar. Most are willing to work much harder if they know there are rich pickings inside. Faced with a situation where they don't know, and the chance there is very little to gain by breaking in, their enthusiasm and work ethic tend to be rather weak.

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#201620 - 05/11/10 03:52 AM Re: I'm Going to Need Stronger Locks [Re: Art_in_FL]
Phaedrus Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 3152
Loc: Big Sky Country
A firearm is more useful against home invasions than a stealth burglary of an empty home. The latter may cost you some possessions, but they're just things. Renter's or homeowner's insurance will replace things, and even if it doesn't, they're still just things. The home invasion scenario is far scarier. The perps may intend to rape or kill the occupant and don't care at all if you live or die. Often the crime may involve drugs. Your life isn't so easily replaced as your flat screen TV. That's the reason to be armed. If you're not home, then obviously the thief is probably going to steal your gun along with all your other stuff!
_________________________
“I'd rather have questions that cannot be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” —Richard Feynman

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#201633 - 05/11/10 01:18 PM Re: I'm Going to Need Stronger Locks [Re: Phaedrus]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
Which is why I have a "good" gun safe. It is where my firearms and other vital items are kept when not in use.

I neglected to add a good video monitoring/recording system to the security system will end the false alarm situation pretty well. Nothing like getting a picture of a guy tapping a window, and the license plate of his buddy's car sitting down the block where he got out.

Of course, some of my security system is built on the premise that the best defense is a good offense. Getting into my house might be easier than getting out. I watch too many "SAW" movies.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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