Equipped To Survive Equipped To Survive® Presents
The Survival Forum
Where do you want to go on ETS?

Page 4 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >
Topic Options
#200543 - 04/19/10 11:40 PM Re: UK Airspace Closed - Volcanic Ash Disaster [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
Horus Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 07/29/09
Posts: 53
Loc: MA
Time-lapse video of ash spread from the Norwegian Meteorlogical office. Click here to watch. Pretty cool.
_________________________
@JohnPGalvin

Top
#200557 - 04/20/10 02:27 AM Re: UK Airspace Closed - Volcanic Ash Disaster [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
James_Van_Artsdalen Offline
Addict

Registered: 09/13/07
Posts: 449
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor


Hmm, Dutch KLM test flights have shown no adverse affects on commercial airliners, yet UK airspace remains closed.

At the time KLM made the "no adverse" announcement on Sunday they had not yet taken the engines apart for inspection. So all they know is that the engines didn't fail during that flight, not whether they'd survive even another 100 hours without failure.

NATO has taken apart a couple of engines from fighters that did have damage from this ash cloud.

The ash cloud does not extend uniformly from ground-level upwards: vertical wind sheer means many altitudes are ash-free, yet a few thousand feet above or below have ash.

Top
#200559 - 04/20/10 02:29 AM Re: UK Airspace Closed - Volcanic Ash Disaster [Re: MostlyHarmless]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
"Big Icelandic banks went bust and blew a lot of money from quite a number of British citizens. They are quite eager to get it back..."

Bloody huge letter bomb somebody sent... they really must have been peeved!

Very dramatic photo of the volcanic cloud, compliments of NASA: Fire and ash

Sue

Top
#200562 - 04/20/10 02:43 AM Re: UK Airspace Closed - Volcanic Ash Disaster [Re: KG2V]
James_Van_Artsdalen Offline
Addict

Registered: 09/13/07
Posts: 449
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: KG2V
New Tourism Motto:

Thanks to Iceland, What happens in Europe, Stays in Europe


Some stranded tourists are probably thinking more along the lines of Hotel California "... you can never leave"!

Imagine if this had taken place at a peak vacation travel period.

If the EU allows flight then the FAA in the USA has a problem: do they require tear-downs of those engines before allowing them into the US? And will the Chinese allow those airplanes? (China has a very strong aviation safety record in the last few years, better than the US)

Top
#200566 - 04/20/10 03:31 AM Re: UK Airspace Closed - Volcanic Ash Disaster [Re: James_Van_Artsdalen]
Eric Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/09/06
Posts: 323
Loc: Iowa
Ash damage to turbine engines and other airplane systems can be very subtle. The hot sections of modern jet engines have very tight operating tolerances and operate very near the temperature limits of the materials involved. Minor loss in cooling efficiency or excess wear could lead to at least a loss of efficiency and increases the possibly of several different engine failure scenarios.

For Commercial Air Transport flights (Airlines) the general rule is to keep the likelihood of a catastrophic failure (one leading to the loss of the airplane) to less than one chance in 1,000,000,000 hours. This focus on safety leads to a very conservative approach to managing the airspace when things like volcanic ash are floating around. Loss of an engine, or even significantly reduced performance from one or more engines is a significant flight hazard.

- Eric
_________________________
You are never beaten until you admit it. - - General George S. Patton


Top
#200631 - 04/20/10 09:14 PM Re: UK Airspace Closed - Volcanic Ash Disaster [Re: Eric]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
Hmm, strange happenings again, another ash cloud was reported to be on its way this morning, but now for some reason all airports within the UK will now be operating normally but with some limited restrictions on some airspace routes. Must have started to run out of Kiwi fruits, Asparagus and Mange Tout at Notting Hill Sainsbury's. wink

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8633601.stm





Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (04/20/10 09:41 PM)

Top
#200704 - 04/21/10 10:25 PM Re: UK Airspace Closed - Volcanic Ash Disaster [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
Art_in_FL Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2432
The airlines operating in the UK are complaining about Britain being overly cautious. Evidently other nations restarted flights much earlier. Report on NPR was that the airlines were losing $200 million a day they were shut down.

I suspect that this is one of those times when government is going to get thrashed either way. Damned if they do, damned if they don't. They have to make the call and expect the complaints.

It has to be pointer out that, as one person put it on the radio, 'It is better to be on the ground wishing you were flying than flying wishing you were on the ground'.

Modern jet aircraft have roughly the same glide characteristics as a brick if all the engines stop. Even one engine out is a flight emergency. Also that $200 million would just about make the down payments on the legal costs of 200 people dead in a plane crash. And that only if it comes down in a friendly, uninhabited, area. Take out a high-rise full of people or a nuclear power plant while struggling to make the airport and things could get downright expensive.


Top
#200724 - 04/22/10 06:27 AM Re: UK Airspace Closed - Volcanic Ash Disaster [Re: Art_in_FL]
MostlyHarmless Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 982
Loc: Norway
True, better safe than sorry.

On the other side, there are lots and lots of indications that the issue with flying through thin ash clouds is more about drastically shortened life span of engines. The risk of engines stopping dead in air seems to be slim to non-existent. Trouble is - it is hard to guarantee, and the expert just don't know enough about it. Yet.

Top
#200733 - 04/22/10 12:29 PM Re: UK Airspace Closed - Volcanic Ash Disaster [Re: Art_in_FL]
unimogbert Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 882
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Art_in_FL


Modern jet aircraft have roughly the same glide characteristics as a brick if all the engines stop.



This is not correct. Modern jets are very aerodynamically clean and glide quite well thank you. Lets not exaggerate the seriousness of the situation beyond reality.


See "Gimli Glider" ( aka Air Canada Flt 143)

See the story of Air Transat Flt 236 pumping all fuel overboard mid-ocean due to an undiagnosed fuel leak and landing as a glider in the Azores.

And don't forget the recent ditching into the Hudson. That was a most excellent glider flight ending in a fine landing in the safest place available.

All airplanes are gliders at heart. Bricks are just projectiles.

18:1 glide ratio is a number that comes to mind for jets. I've flown sailplanes with a much worse glide ratio.

It's not the glide characteristics that are the problem. It's the uncertainty about where the aircraft might revert to unplanned gliding as well as any additional damage due to engine spontaneous disassembly that can cause really big issues.

Gliding is GOOD! (says the former glider flight instructor)




Top
#200737 - 04/22/10 01:01 PM Re: UK Airspace Closed - Volcanic Ash Disaster [Re: Art_in_FL]
Compugeek Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/09/09
Posts: 392
Loc: San Diego, CA
Originally Posted By: Art_in_FL
Modern jet aircraft have roughly the same glide characteristics as a brick if all the engines stop. Even one engine out is a flight emergency.


To add to what unimogbert said, modern commercial aircraft are designed to maximize lift and minimize drag for fuel efficiency. This also maximizes their glide performance.

One engine going out is considered an emergency because if you don't know why that engine quit, you don't know if the others are about to quit, too. So you want to get that plane back on the ground as soon as you can.
_________________________
Okey-dokey. What's plan B?

Top
Page 4 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >



Moderator:  MartinFocazio, Tyber 
March
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Who's Online
0 registered (), 134 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
GallenR, Jeebo, NicholasMarshall, Yadav, BenFoakes
5367 Registered Users
Newest Posts
What did you do today to prepare?
by dougwalkabout
03/27/24 11:21 PM
Zippo Butane Inserts
by dougwalkabout
03/27/24 11:11 PM
Question about a "Backyard Mutitool"
by Ren
03/17/24 01:00 AM
Problem in my WhatsApp configuration
by Chisel
03/09/24 01:55 PM
New Madrid Seismic Zone
by Jeanette_Isabelle
03/04/24 02:44 PM
EDC Reduction
by EchoingLaugh
03/02/24 04:12 PM
Newest Images
Tiny knife / wrench
Handmade knives
2"x2" Glass Signal Mirror, Retroreflective Mesh
Trade School Tool Kit
My Pocket Kit
Glossary
Test

WARNING & DISCLAIMER: SELECT AND USE OUTDOORS AND SURVIVAL EQUIPMENT, SUPPLIES AND TECHNIQUES AT YOUR OWN RISK. Information posted on this forum is not reviewed for accuracy and may not be reliable, use at your own risk. Please review the full WARNING & DISCLAIMER about information on this site.