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Where do you want to go on ETS?

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#199676 - 04/05/10 05:00 PM Re: Where would I look for a course on CPR [Re: NobodySpecial]
paramedicpete Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1920
Loc: Frederick, Maryland
Quote:
Main point of the training is to try and convince people that they don't work on people that have had a heart attack - whatever you see on ER/Gresy anatomy/House ...


Well actually they do. Automatic External Defibrillators (AEDs) are designed to work on patients that have an electrical cardiac conditions of V-Tach (with or without pulse- the heart can be beating so fast or uncontrolled, that the chambers of the heart do not refill properly, thus there is no effective output) and V-Fib (the cardiac cells are firing without any type of coordination, to the point where the heart is just quivering). If you mean they will not work on asystole (no electrical activity), then yes, you are correct. Generally, as an area of the heart becomes deprived of oxygen, the normal electrical patterns become erratic, leading to dysrhythmias, of which V-Tach and V-fib are likely. As the heart continues to be starved of oxygen, the electrical activity and pathways become inactive or asystolic. The goal of an AED is not to provide an eternal source of electricity (external pacing does), but to reset the coordinated electrical flow though the heart.

Pete

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#199679 - 04/05/10 05:35 PM Re: Where would I look for a course on CPR [Re: MarkO]
Eugene Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 2810
Originally Posted By: MarkO
Originally Posted By: Eugene
Are AED's common enough that I would ever have access to one, I've never seen or heard of one before, had to google to see what one was.


I've seen them in malls, convention centers, on planes etc, etc.



I guess I haven't been to a mall, convention center or airplane recently.

We live within a mile from a huge mall but I'll take the kids to a park rather than to it,we maybe go to the mall once or twice a year.

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#199685 - 04/05/10 06:10 PM Re: Where would I look for a course on CPR [Re: Eugene]
Lono Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/19/06
Posts: 1013
Loc: Pacific NW, USA
I think AED training is necessary because without it, many folks don't feel they have the wherewithal to apply an AED in a real-life situation. Many people have the function of AEDs mixed with defribrilators, and applying a defribrilator without training to the body of a stranger or even a loved one is a daunting task - how much to charge, how many times to shock, hey, he still isn't breathing, do I shock or do I perform CPR? Without a session on AED operation I was hesitant to ever apply one, even if it was available. Of course I learned a few things right off:

- that AEDs are designed with instructions (verbal, visual cues) built in
- that they won't function if they aren't applied properly
- that they won't function if the patient doesn't diagnose and require the electric shock.

I would call an AED a defribilator for dummies (with apologies to dummies, AED manufacturers, and better trained medicos everywhere), and if you have access to one, and know how to apply it, you are possibly applying restorative cardo shock in a very time sensitive environment. You still very much want EMTs or paramedics to arrive and take over care, they have transport and often so many more drugs available to help cardiac victims.

If you don't know the first thing about an AED, its true if you open one up, it will instruct you on how to apply it, and if you keep your head you may do so before the EMTs arrive; but time is an issue, and if you misapply through lack of familiarity, you may be costing your patient some time, which is about all they have left.

So yeah, to me CPR + AED training makes sense in today's world, so a class that does both is better than CPR only imho - but waiting for such a class doesn't make sense if you aren't CPR certified, get your CPR training right off from anyone who is certified, don't wait for a schedule to align the planets for you. And keep your eyes open for environments where AEDs live, I see them more and more in stores, libraries, conference centers etc, and once you notice the AED box on the wall its good to keep it in your mental map if you are going to be in the vicinity for a while. Your best call is still to alert 911 and begin CPR, but if someone runs up with an AED, step aside, or open it up and put your knowledge to use immediately.

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#199688 - 04/05/10 06:24 PM Re: Where would I look for a course on CPR [Re: Lono]
Lono Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/19/06
Posts: 1013
Loc: Pacific NW, USA
One other observation - around here its actually common to train local security and police in AED operation, and to stock their cars or patrol vehicles with AEDs. The City of Bellevue (Washington) police vehicles have started getting them, despite having a really good response time from the city fire department EMTs and Medic One service. And I heard that they already had their first successful AED call about a week after the program started.

The concept is simple: if they get a 911 call, or even a 911 hang up, they may arrive first on scene, and they take the AED with them to provide immediate treatment. This can be important especially in closed or secure environments where it may take an escort to get to a patient, or in a mall where distance = time not treating someone.

My employer does this too with their security guys, and they strive for 3-4 minutes from a 911 call to the local security center. And they do it for 911 hang ups, which I experienced myself early one morning, as I was trying to dial an outside line (dial 9) and then call Bangalore (911 or 991 area/country code), but fumbled the digits, hung up and tried again. Security got the fumbled call, read it as a possible 911, and as far as they knew I might have been a nearly morning cardiac arrest victim who dropped the phone. Two very sharp security folks showed up at my office door a couple minutes later, relieved, and so was I, and very sheepish that I had set them off on the run like that. It gives another dimension to respect these guys who do this mostly mundane work, interrupted by moments of excitement.

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#199708 - 04/06/10 01:19 AM Re: Where would I look for a course on CPR [Re: barbakane]
TeacherRO Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/11/05
Posts: 2123
+1 on the red cross. Very basic and taught often.

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#199712 - 04/06/10 01:56 AM Re: Where would I look for a course on CPR [Re: TeacherRO]
Eugene Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 2810
looks like they cover AED pretty much by default
http://www.delco-redcross.org/index.php?pr=InfantChild_CPRAED

I may have to search Franklin county though since it looks like all the classes in Delaware county keep getting canceled. I'm within walking distance of the county line.

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#199718 - 04/06/10 03:38 AM Re: Where would I look for a course on CPR [Re: Lono]
MarkO Offline
Member

Registered: 03/19/10
Posts: 137
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: Lono
I think AED training is necessary because without it, many folks don't feel they have the wherewithal to apply an AED in a real-life situation. Many people have the function of AEDs mixed with defribrilators .......


Maybe, but the chance of the general public just happening upon a full on defibrilator is slim compared to coming across an AED.

AED training is great and I go through it every year. There is always pertinent info delivered but any calm & collected person can successfully use them without training. I'm not sure, albeit with my limited experience, that there is any other more potentially valuable tool that a lay person could use.

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#199778 - 04/07/10 12:45 AM Re: Where would I look for a course on CPR [Re: MarkO]
Eugene Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 2810
The Franklin county Ohio Red Cross has online CPR classes, suppose they have us practice rescue breathing on the USB port?

The basic first aid, how hands on is it, do they go into things like splints where you need to do it by hand or is it all memorize this medicine for that symptom, i.e. would that be doable online, I was wanting to upgrade our home FAK but when I saw that class I decided to wait and take a class first so I'll know how to use things in it.

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#199779 - 04/07/10 01:56 AM Re: Where would I look for a course on CPR [Re: Eugene]
LED Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 1473
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
From what I remember of the Red Cross first aid course, they go over cuts, burns, and breaks and how to bandage/stabilize the person until EMS gets there. Things like direct pressure, how to make a sling with a triangle bandage, immobilization of broken limbs, etc. Fairly simple but definitely useful.


Oh, you get a little bag with wraps/bandages and get to practice on your classmates.


Edited by LED (04/07/10 01:57 AM)
Edit Reason: forgot something

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