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#198917 - 03/25/10 12:09 PM Re: Preparedness To The Rescue [Re: MDinana]
Leigh_Ratcliffe Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 1355
Loc: United Kingdom.
Sorry, beg to differ. If it is within your power to assist, and you refuse to do so, then that is, by any moral standard, murder. In much the same that, for instance, you are standing on the pier. Some one is drowning right in front of you. There is a lifesaver ring next to you.

You look at them, Look at the ring.

And walk away.

To me that is deliberate murder.
_________________________
I don't do dumb & helpless.

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#198934 - 03/25/10 07:40 PM Re: Preparedness To The Rescue [Re: Leigh_Ratcliffe]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2196
Loc: Beer&Cheese country
I understand what you're saying Leigh, but by that "stand by and do nothing" standard, you're pretty much saying that any failure to act is murder.

So everyone out there with a DNR or hospice patient is murdered? Search And Rescue pilots "murder" people at sea cuz they don't ditch their aircraft into the water in order to be hands-on with the victim? Did all the folks in NYC "murder" the folks in the Trade towers because it was the FDNY, not them, that went into the towers?

Certainly I've made up pretty extreme examples, but I'm trying to prove my point - Failing to attempt to SAVE a life is not the same as ENDING a life.

Anyway, this will go way off-topic fast, so PM me if you want to continue (or make a new thread!)


Edited by MDinana (03/25/10 07:40 PM)

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#198939 - 03/25/10 08:59 PM Re: Preparedness To The Rescue [Re: KG2V]
scafool Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 1534
Loc: Muskoka
Originally Posted By: KG2V
Originally Posted By: philip
> Once I went to the really nice metal box, I found it EMPTY except
> for a few Band-Aids!!

I've never seen a wall-mounted first aid box that wasn't as you describe it.


I have - the first few minutes after I finished restocking it


Yes. We used to put the small stuff that people used up fast in a box in the supervisors or safety officer's office.
If you needed a bandaid or aspirin you went to the office and got one.
It solved the worst part of the stuff disappearing because people didn't steal trauma supplies as fast as they took minor cut and scrape stuff.
It also let us track who was getting minor injuries. This was not to punish with. It gave us a sudden picture of the small hazards (like sharp edges on steel being handled with bare hands).
_________________________
May set off to explore without any sense of direction or how to return.

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#198984 - 03/26/10 11:59 AM Re: Preparedness To The Rescue [Re: MDinana]
Leigh_Ratcliffe Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 1355
Loc: United Kingdom.
Not Failing smile. Refusing.

What I am specifically saying is that making a deliberate decision not to render aid, presuming that all other things are equal, is immoral.

I do not expect people to hazard their own lives to help, nor do I have any time for those who expect others to do so.

However I am saying that deliberately refusing aid when it is safe to do so is outright wrong.

I think that most participants on this forum would agree with that.

That woman who has disciplined that co-worker for helping should be dismissed.
_________________________
I don't do dumb & helpless.

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#198994 - 03/26/10 02:17 PM Re: Preparedness To The Rescue [Re: Desperado]
ILBob Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 776
Loc: Northern IL
Originally Posted By: Desperado

The other male employee that helped me to access the FAK and to transport the patient both directions was reprimanded today via email! His boss thinks he either should not have been involved, or at least left the clinic immediately upon helping our co-worker inside.

Not to pick on you or your fellow employee, but virtually all companies forbid what you did for liability reasons, or have employees designated for this purpose. There are some serious liability problems with having an employee who is "on the clock" doing things like this. It is the same reason why people who clock in and out are required to clock out if they leave the premises for lunch.

Good Samaritan laws generally provide decent protection for first aid, but not for transport in the kind of situation you found yourself in. The company is right to protect itself from the hordes of lawyers waiting on the sidelines.

The two of you may have meant well, but your actions put the company at risk for no good reason.


_________________________
Warning - I am not an expert on anything having to do with this forum, but that won't stop me from saying what I think. smile

Bob

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#199004 - 03/26/10 04:19 PM Re: Preparedness To The Rescue [Re: scafool]
NobodySpecial Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 197
Originally Posted By: scafool
I've never seen a wall-mounted first aid box that wasn't as you describe it.

The new rules we have mean the first aid box is useless - it can only have trauma supplies.
The idea is that the first aid is trauma until the paramedics arrive. If you have band-aids/aspirin etc then that is treatment - and you aren't qualified to decide that a band-aid is all the treatment that is needed!

Same logic removed the burn gel from the only source of burns (you might be alergic) and the oxygen masks from the only place they are needed (a member of the public might break into the lab and need oxygen then sue us when we administer it!)

Result of course is everyone's desk is stuffed full of band-aid aspirin and burn gel.



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#199022 - 03/26/10 11:59 PM Re: Preparedness To The Rescue [Re: NobodySpecial]
hikermor Online   content
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7373
Loc: southern Cal
Originally Posted By: NobodySpecial

Same logic removed the burn gel from the only source of burns




My understanding from my first aid training is that application of any gel to burns is not recommended (cool water for moderate burns is OK). I am out of certification right now. Is gel currently recommended by a recognized authority for burns?

It would seem only logical that the kit would be equipped with materials commensurate with the training of those using it.

Of course, in most offices, most people have no training at all. Now we see why the FAKs are all empty!
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

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#199041 - 03/27/10 03:09 AM Re: Preparedness To The Rescue [Re: hikermor]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
The legal repercussions of helping someone is just one more reason why we need more fully-informed and willing jurors, rather than just a bored bunch of dummies who weren't smart enough to escape jury duty.

Most people who end up in a jury box don't realize that not only can they decide whether or not the defendant is guilty, they can also try the law that the defendant's "crime" is based on. The jurors can vote to acquit if they feel the law is wrong, or they may vote to acquit because they believe that the law is being unjustly applied.

This is a Constitutional right. See http://fija.org/

Sue

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#199042 - 03/27/10 03:30 AM Re: Preparedness To The Rescue [Re: Leigh_Ratcliffe]
Desperado Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 1530
Loc: DFW, Texas
Originally Posted By: Leigh_Ratcliffe
Sorry, beg to differ. If it is within your power to assist, and you refuse to do so, then that is, by any moral standard, murder. In much the same that, for instance, you are standing on the pier. Some one is drowning right in front of you. There is a lifesaver ring next to you.

You look at them, Look at the ring.

And walk away.

To me that is deliberate murder.


Maybe, and only maybe, would it be voluntary manslaughter here in the States.

Of course, I did not finish law school.

_________________________
I do the things that I must, and really regret, are unfortunately necessary.

RIP OBG

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#199046 - 03/27/10 04:31 AM Re: Preparedness To The Rescue [Re: Desperado]
EMPnotImplyNuclear Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 374
Good read here
http://www.agulnicklaw.com/articles/duty.html
Criminal Liability for Failure to Rescue: A Brief Survey of
French and American Law

Like Batman said "I don't have to save you" smile unless I own the property you're drowning on, or I pushed you in, or I'm your parent, or I'm your lifeguard, or I started to rescue you, or I'm in Vermont or Massachusetts and I can help without exposing myself to harm.

smile

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