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#189310 - 11/27/09 03:27 PM Re: Survival in vehicles [Re: Art_in_FL]
Jeanette_Isabelle Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2507
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Originally Posted By: Art_in_FL
I would think that instead of big with a gas guzzling engine you might go for something more like the old Willys Jeep. Fairly small, compact, with a small, simple, fuel efficient engine that carries a lot of weight for its size through gearing. The old Jeep only had, depending on year, about between 20 and 60HP worth of gasoline engine with the majority or wartime production having 60HP. At capacity, considerably more than 3/4 ton, on a flat road it would only do 40 mph but, as the saying goes, it could climb a tree.

I'm not a mechanic; based on what you said it sounds like it had a long stoke engine giving it ample low-end torque at minimal horse power.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#189327 - 11/27/09 08:32 PM Re: Survival in vehicles [Re: comms]
philip Offline
Addict

Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 639
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
> I'm looking for am international scout or bronco, pre 1977.

It's been given away, but I had a friend who had one for sale and couldn't find a buyer (a Travelall, actually). There are no parts for them anymore except for the group of binders who make them by hand, so my friend couldn't afford to keep it running.

Check here for info on Scouts:
http://www.binderbulletin.org/

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#189338 - 11/28/09 12:43 AM Re: Survival in vehicles [Re: Eugene]
Art_in_FL Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2432
Originally Posted By: Eugene
My father had a willys jeep, the old carburated engine was small but not efficient. You can't buy a 1/2 ton diesel truck, you have to get a 3/4 ton to get a diesel.
The current full size 4x4's all get over 20mpg (well the big three anyway, the japanese brands cant seem to figure out economy). Most of the mid sized v6 trucks/suv's all get about the same fuel economy, they certainly are not "gas guzzelers".


By todays standard a Willys Jeep isn't fuel efficient but in its day, late 30s to very early 40s, when gas was a few cents a gallon, it was pretty competitive. I'm really not suggesting anyone get a Willys Jeep. Rather I'm suggesting that the concept of the original Jeep, a small and strong all-terrain vehicle, something Jeep forgot as their design got bloated and complex, is the right idea.

Also, while American auto companies, seemingly always behind the curve, insist that diesels only show up in large vehicles you may want to look toward small diesels, from Yanmar or Kabota perhaps, to fit into an existing small vehicle or look at something like the small end of Isuzu's light and commercial truck line as they are available with a diesel. The Elf, a light-duty commercial truck with a very good reputation for durability, is a big large by my thinking but it is a truly international truck so parts are going to be available for a very long time. Find one used and rebuilding might be the way to go.

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#189356 - 11/28/09 07:32 AM Re: Survival in vehicles [Re: Art_in_FL]
UpstateTom Offline
Member

Registered: 10/05/09
Posts: 165
Loc: Rens. County, NY
The Dodge Sprinter looks like it could make a great survival vehicle, but it's not inexpensive, and it isn't available in the US with the 4 cylinder diesel, just the 6.

A long wheelbase Jeep, like an M170, with a small air cooled engine, like a 20HP Honda, a big gas tank, and a synchronized transmission, would be nice. Light weight, no bells and whistles except manual 4WD, and a tiny but modern engine for quiet running and long range.

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#189361 - 11/28/09 09:54 AM Re: Survival in vehicles [Re: philip]
James_Van_Artsdalen Offline
Addict

Registered: 09/13/07
Posts: 449
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: philip

We live in the San Francisco Bay Area, and we expect a major earthquake followed by an even more major fire (as all the gas mains and water mains will be broken by the quake).

How far do you need to go? I've always thought of earthquakes as fairly localized events: moving a dozen miles in stage 1 evac - in the right direction! - should get you out of the path of initial fires started by the earthquake, and another dozen miles out of any later after-affect fires, etc, and from there it's mainly a matter of getting far enough away to be get able to get supplies (gas, food, lodging) normally & wait for the the OK to return.

A fast truck is useless: you want a diesel that is efficient at speeds under 5 mph, and at idle, because that's all you'll achieve when a million people are also evacuating on the same road.

There won't be any fuel left at the gas station by the time you get there so you go as far as you let your tank run down before the earthquake. A big tank you let run down to the last 5 gallons goes as far as a small tank run down to the last five gallons...

A good set of up-to-date road maps, with several pre-selected routes based on which direction you need to evac, and "practicing" each along with candidate detours, is probably more important than which vehicle. Make sure it has a good radio.

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#189363 - 11/28/09 11:55 AM Re: Survival in vehicles [Re: Art_in_FL]
Eugene Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 2847
Originally Posted By: Art_in_FL


By todays standard a Willys Jeep isn't fuel efficient but in its day, late 30s to very early 40s, when gas was a few cents a gallon, it was pretty competitive. I'm really not suggesting anyone get a Willys Jeep. Rather I'm suggesting that the concept of the original Jeep, a small and strong all-terrain vehicle, something Jeep forgot as their design got bloated and complex, is the right idea.

Also, while American auto companies, seemingly always behind the curve, insist that diesels only show up in large vehicles you may want to look toward small diesels, from Yanmar or Kabota perhaps, to fit into an existing small vehicle or look at something like the small end of Isuzu's light and commercial truck line as they are available with a diesel. The Elf, a light-duty commercial truck with a very good reputation for durability, is a big large by my thinking but it is a truly international truck so parts are going to be available for a very long time. Find one used and rebuilding might be the way to go.


I was looking at building up a nice small truck fora while, cummins 4b engine in an s10, etc. But it would have taken a long time to find and assemble all the parts then if I ever did need parts more hunting around to find them. Those Yanmar, Kobota, Isuzu your going to have the same problem, parts will be special order.
I found the American trucks with their gas mileage rivaling a small diesel were ahead of the curve enough and available everywhere with supplies and parts everywhere so I could have a working BOV now rather than sometime in the future when I could finish building it. I spent many hours just on R&D trying to make a comparable small truck, now I can concentrate on other survival supplies.

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#189370 - 11/28/09 02:20 PM Re: Survival in vehicles [Re: James_Van_Artsdalen]
hikermor Online   content
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7371
Loc: southern Cal
The questions you raise are the reason my earthquake strategy centers on shelter in place/rally round the old homestead techniques, although we do have to be prepared to deal with fires and infrastructure disruption.

Although earthquakes are relatively localized, the infrastructure effects can be more widespread and this increases exponentially with greater magnitudes.
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Geezer in Chief

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#189375 - 11/28/09 03:32 PM Re: Survival in vehicles [Re: hikermor]
7point82 Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/24/05
Posts: 478
Loc: Oklahoma
The primary drawback I see to a specialized bug out vehicle is that you can't count on it unless it is your daily driver. Like everything else I'm sure this is highly variable based on everyone's specific lifestyle but out here in the middle of nowhere you're unlikely to get a chance to run home or to storage or where ever you keep your BOV.

I had a family emergency pop up last night while I was on my way to a late dinner at a local restaurant. I needed to get out of town and on my way ASAP. The supplies that live in my daily driver and having more than half a tank of gas were the keys to responding to the issue effectively.

That said, the Mad Max mobiles are always fun to think about. grin
_________________________
"There is not a man of us who does not at times need a helping hand to be stretched out to him, and then shame upon him who will not stretch out the helping hand to his brother." -Theodore Roosevelt

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#189386 - 11/28/09 07:43 PM Re: Survival in vehicles [Re: James_Van_Artsdalen]
philip Offline
Addict

Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 639
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: James_Van_Artsdalen

How far do you need to go? I've always thought of earthquakes as fairly localized events: moving a dozen miles in stage 1 evac - in the right direction! - should get you out of the path of initial fires started by the earthquake, and another dozen miles out of any later after-affect fires, etc, and from there it's mainly a matter of getting far enough away to be get able to get supplies (gas, food, lodging) normally & wait for the the OK to return.


There are problems. Unlike Texas, I basically have only one escape route: south. I live on a peninsula:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...mp;t=h&z=11
The San Andreas fault is just to the west of 280 on that map, and I live near 101. 101 is crossed by overpasses, so getting a dozen miles is a problem if there are collapses of overpasses. 92 could get me west if it's overpasses haven't collapsed onto the city streets below it. Going over the San Mateo Bridge to the East Bay would be a scary thought after a major quake, even if the bridge is still standing. The city streets have over and underpasses from east/west highways and the north/south train and freeways. Think if trying to get out of New Orleans.

We have a cargo van with a month's worth of stuff in it, and my hope is that we can drive south or north out of a fire's path, but with broken gas mains and fires, you never can tell, given the number of over and under passes in our area (including the train tracks that serve San Francisco from all points south). But basically our goal is to shelter in place for a month and hope that we can be evacuated during that time - think New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. ("Wait for the OK to return"? Think again of Katrina. If our town is leveled by fire or quake, I don't bet on it ever being restored to its former glory.)

Our issue is that we don't have a 360-degree evacuation zone. It's one degree - south. Having a Mad Max vehicle that can drive over a collapsed structure is a nice daydream, though.

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#189392 - 11/28/09 10:52 PM Re: Survival in vehicles [Re: philip]
James_Van_Artsdalen Offline
Addict

Registered: 09/13/07
Posts: 449
Loc: Texas
You need one of these: Schwimmwagen!

San Francisco would be rebuilt. It was rebuilt after 1906, as was Galveston after 1900. Katrina and New Orleans are a different kind of problem and can't really be compared to any other situation in the US.

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