Equipped To Survive Equipped To Survive® Presents
The Survival Forum
Where do you want to go on ETS?

Page 8 of 15 < 1 2 ... 6 7 8 9 10 ... 14 15 >
Topic Options
#193749 - 01/17/10 08:25 PM Re: Haiti: Worst Case Scenario [Re: Arney]
Arney Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Arney
Do that over a tent city or any other unsecured area of Port-Au-Prince now and I'm pretty sure that it would turn into a Lord of the Flies free-for-all where the young and strong take it all.

Saturday was the first day I saw TV images of trucks going out with relief supplies and distributing them to the people. I was also a bit surprised to see Blackhawks dumping supplies in various locations. I'm not aware of any deaths, but as you'd expect, it was the strongest and fastest to the supplies who got anything from these air drops. In a couple cases, you saw cardboard cases of HDR's being dropped out the side doors as the chopper hovered over some clearing. In another case, it landed away from an encampment and the crew chiefs were throwing cases of bottled water out onto the ground as fast they could. In the distance, you could see throngs of Haitians running towards them.

Definitely, not the best way to do it. But when you're talking about life and death, at some point, something--anything--is better than not doing anything at all, I guess. I assume that the roads are still largely impassable and that there is a huge shortage of trucks and fuel. Also, it's kind of ridiculous how much security you need to organize the distribution from just one truck. You could see this long cordon of soldiers necessary to funnel the people single file and keep them from rushing the truck all at once, and in that particular occasion, it seemed to work well and even women and children were getting supplies. If that's what it takes for every truckload, though, seems like you'd run out of soldiers really quickly.

Top
#193755 - 01/17/10 09:38 PM Re: Haiti: Worst Case Scenario [Re: Arney]
Lono Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/19/06
Posts: 1013
Loc: Pacific NW, USA
Dumping supplies out the door of a helo isn't optimal, but what you don't see is once the young and the strong get the supplies, what do they do with them - I wager a fair amount get brought back and shared with a waiting family, parent, children or someone else who isn't as young or strong. Not every bit of food put out the door goes on some mythical black market. It may sound kind of Malthusian, but if you can't securely feed this many people at once, you may need to drop some supplies in today, get most of them fed, and try to deal with the unrest among (better) fed people. Could this mean that someone who needed food or water to survive didn't get any today? Possibly, and among a population of 3 million its pretty likely. People will continue to die until the response can effectively bring in enough to feed everyone, tha't a fact.

It's impossible to judge the Belgian medicos who bugged out, we can't assess the situation they found themselves in. You can't be scared of the people you are trying to help, at the same time your security force can't make a decision to leave for the night unless its a very serious situation. I don't know the rate of drug abusers in a place like Haiti, but its probably at least as high as in the US, just with cheaper narcotics and cruder alternatives. Drug abusers come out of disasters too, and they still need their fixes, and conceivably a medical aid unit with pain killers might become a target for that, 5 days out from the main disaster. I don't know though...

Top
#193759 - 01/17/10 10:28 PM Re: Haiti: Worst Case Scenario [Re: Lono]
JBMat Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 745
Loc: NC
From what I hear on local news - local stations embedded guys with the 82d -- the crew chiefs dump the stuff out away from the people because if they land and try to unload the chopper gets mobbed by people wanting to get away from where they are. By mobbed, I mean like 50+ people in the back of a BlackHawk, not a real safe situation. So the chopper crews spot an encampment, dump the stuff out a ways as fast as they can, then beat feet.

Once they get vehicles in they will start to truck it in to the camps and attempt an orderly unload.

Something beats nothing anyhow.

Top
#193773 - 01/18/10 03:54 AM Re: Haiti: Worst Case Scenario [Re: JBMat]
dougwalkabout Offline
Crazy Canuck
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 2738
Loc: Alberta, Canada
I sympathize with the medical team that decided to pull out. I can't imagine a more difficult decision, but it was probably the correct one.

Haiti has a long history of kidnapping, where foreigners are taken by violence and held for ransom by gangs/thugs. I don't think the 'quake would change the facts on the ground.

One opportunistic act by a few criminals could substantially delay or derail the arrival of help for a great many innocents.

Top
#193776 - 01/18/10 04:23 AM Re: Haiti: Worst Case Scenario [Re: dougwalkabout]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
Dropping supplies and backing off may not be perfect, but it beats most of the alternatives. Handing individuals water and food takes an incredible amount of time and is totally unrealistic. I know we like to think here in our 'civilized' countries that places like Haiti are filled with nothing but profiteers, but I don't think that is the case. Honore' said much of the looting in NOLA was for things like mattresses to keep Grandma off the ground.

Regarding security: the 'peacekeeping forces' only work during daylight hours??? They couldn't establish a security perimeter around the medical facility? Whose ego was getting in the way THIS time?

As to rebuilding, forget the First World building codes! There are cheap ways to build decent homes that don't involve nitpicking, common-senseless bureaucrats. And the first person to mention flush toilets should be shot, hung and crucified (in any order).

But I'm sure that the rebuilding will involve the most cost, the least sense, the most expensive materials and methods, and the most First World contractors stuffing their pockets.

Sue, who is reaching beyond cynical

Top
#193777 - 01/18/10 04:31 AM Re: Haiti: Worst Case Scenario [Re: Arney]
LED Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 1474
Originally Posted By: Arney
I was watching that live Friday night and it was a tough situation to watch unfold. I tip my hat to Sanjay Gupta for staying and keeping all the patients alive till morning, but it was a tough situation for the Belgians, too. Sanjay has his own security detail, and the Belgian team chief was told that their UN security was being pulled back for the night. Despite pleas from the team chief, the UN was not willing to provide any security overnight but did offer them the option to return with the peacekeepers, and that's what he finally decided to do.


Not to mention Sanjay probably has the best health and life insurance money can buy. Easy to take risks when you're a celebrity working for a television network with unlimited resources to take care of you. Sounds more like he put his crew in danger with his showboating than a selfless act of generosity. Production assistants don't make squat compared to talent. But who knows.

Top
#193779 - 01/18/10 04:38 AM Re: Haiti: Worst Case Scenario [Re: Susan]
LED Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 1474
Originally Posted By: Susan
But I'm sure that the rebuilding will involve the most cost, the least sense, the most expensive materials and methods, and the most First World contractors stuffing their pockets.


I think you're 100% right. Parasites will be coming out of the woodwork for reconstruction contracts. IIRC, at least 50% or more of the money spent on contractors in war and disaster reconstruction zones is lost due to theft, incompetence, waste, etc.

Top
#193782 - 01/18/10 04:54 AM Re: Haiti: Worst Case Scenario [Re: LED]
dougwalkabout Offline
Crazy Canuck
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 2738
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Here's a BBC link giving early first-person reports from some NGO personnel. I thought it was an interesting read.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8458915.stm

Top
#193788 - 01/18/10 11:28 AM Re: Haiti: Worst Case Scenario [Re: Blast]
Leigh_Ratcliffe Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 1355
Loc: United Kingdom.
Originally Posted By: Blast
At least they haven't sent more UN "Peacekeeping" troops. It seems Haitian children have already suffered enough.

-Blast


Beg to differ.
Send them.
Get a declaration of Martial Law off the Haitian Government & the Airborne can deal with them.
_________________________
I don't do dumb & helpless.

Top
#193796 - 01/18/10 03:00 PM Re: Haiti: Worst Case Scenario [Re: Susan]
Lono Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/19/06
Posts: 1013
Loc: Pacific NW, USA
Originally Posted By: Susan

As to rebuilding, forget the First World building codes! There are cheap ways to build decent homes that don't involve nitpicking, common-senseless bureaucrats. And the first person to mention flush toilets should be shot, hung and crucified (in any order).


Alright Susan, I'll bite - why shouldn't we consider a modern sewer system and (gasp) flush toilets (or tropical equivalent) for people in Haiti, besides surviving your obvious acrimony and cynicism? Howabout running water? Or electricity? As to building codes, granted they are expensive, but what do bureaucrats have to do with them - do you object to bureaucrats enforcing a building code, or to the distinct possibility that bureaucrats might profit from not enforcing a code? What option do you offer - would you accept that people build their own homes again, and suffer the same devastation after the next hurricane, again? Should Haitians just go back to tossing garbage in the streets and gulleys, and wait for it to wash away?

Basic sanitation is a fundamental precept of modern civilization - it helps prevent disease, and relative to its cost is a no brainer. With the extent of devastation there are no expensive retrofits, its planning and laying pipe. From descriptions it sounds like much of Port au Prince's most impoverished areas are served by open sewers in the streets. the Romans managed this - moving Haiti from the 18th century should be part of whatever plan people develop.

Top
Page 8 of 15 < 1 2 ... 6 7 8 9 10 ... 14 15 >



Moderator:  MartinFocazio, Tyber 
March
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Who's Online
2 registered (Russ, Montanero), 90 Guests and 8 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
JHurley, Highwayman, Janysboy, FlyerOne, galenSOM
5278 Registered Users
Newest Posts
Upgrading old PSP kit?
by Montanero
0 seconds ago
Can't use it if you don't have it
by hikermor
44 minutes 23 seconds ago
Go or Stay ? An interesting informal discussion
by Jeanette_Isabelle
03/24/19 09:22 PM
Best use of time, money
by Byrd_Huntr
03/24/19 04:15 PM
Earthh Shaking News
by hikermor
03/24/19 12:36 AM
Hazards we face - What are the odds?
by hikermor
03/23/19 03:50 PM
To Build a Fire - Jack London
by Montanero
03/23/19 11:49 AM
Where to discuss knife rights?
by Phaedrus
03/21/19 05:57 AM
Newest Images
Tiny knife / wrench
Handmade knives
2"x2" Glass Signal Mirror, Retroreflective Mesh
Trade School Tool Kit
My Pocket Kit
Glossary
Test

WARNING & DISCLAIMER: SELECT AND USE OUTDOORS AND SURVIVAL EQUIPMENT, SUPPLIES AND TECHNIQUES AT YOUR OWN RISK. Information posted on this forum is not reviewed for accuracy and may not be reliable, use at your own risk. Please review the full WARNING & DISCLAIMER about information on this site.