I've seen a lot of cool stuff here and around the 'net on survival tins. A lot are really thought out and pretty slick.<br><br>If someone had a survival tin around the size of an Altoids container, how would they use that to help collect and purify water? I know you can squeeze purification tabs in there, but where do you put the water? I've seen people put condoms in there as well, but how long before it breaks?<br><br>Is the answer that a survival tin is not enough, or is there some method I don't know?<br><br><br>Peace and God Bless America<br><br>Chris

Are you talking about storing water in the survival tin? if thats the case thats not really practical because thats not much of a drink and that leaves no room for survival "gear"<br><br><br>

The pocket tin is your minimum " don't leave home without it" kit. It has the bare essentials to get started, but certainly isn't sufficient for long term needs altogether.The condom will do, but yes, it's fragile. You would need to improvise a water container. So, whats out there? Native peoples made canteens out of animal guts, hollowed gourds and basketry. The artifacts of contemporary resourses are often present; glass and plastic bottles are all to common and waterways may carry them well beyond human traffic.Actually, a dedicated collapsable container isn't that bulky. Something similar to the military survival container ( it looks like a I qt. opaque plastic balloon) is easily stashed in a coat jacket.<br><br>

No, I was wondering how to store water when all you had available was the survival tin. It seemed to me that the little altoids-type survival tins weren't practical; I was thinking there should be more options included- like a lunchbox sized tin with a metal bowl.<br><br>Maybe instead of a survival tin, a fanny pack loaded with more gear plus an aluminum canteen+canteen cup would be a better choice. I just got a little confused on all the emphasis (popularity?) on little "bare bones" survival kits. In fact, a lot of the books talk and talk about those small kits on page 1, but then the rest of the book teaches techniques using tools that aren't in the kit at all.<br><br><br>Peace and God Bless America<br><br>Chris

It seems to me to be a practical gap in the gear, for the mini-kits at least.<br><br>I've seen the questions asked, here and elsewhere, about how you fill a condom or a balloon from a trickling spring, stream or seep, but I’ve never heard a good answer. I can’t see it working at all, myself (have you ever tried to UNTIE a rubber balloon? I don't imagine condoms are easier), but I don’t have a better solution. When cornered on the issue, a lot of people seem to start talking about the other containers they carry- I think that tells us something. The mylar party balloons seem to be of uneven quality and generally too large for an Altoids kit anyway. Even the HD gallon ziplocks are too large for that size kit.<br><br>I like the Platypus bag/bottles a lot, I have a couple in various pouches, they store flat and comparatively small, but still far to big for this size container.<br><br>I just recently ordered some “3-pint pilot’s survival water bags”, apparently Desert Storm vintage (unissued) they look to be the most compact containers I’ve seen other than balloons and condoms, the material looks like something like IV bag stuff, with a neck having a zip lock closure. I think these will be flatter/smaller than the Platypus bags, but I’m not optimistic that even they’ll store small enough for the smallest kits. <br><br>What we really need is a resealable 1 liter mylar bag with a neck, sort of like a large Mainstay water bottle with a zip lock. <br><br>Maybe we’re looking at this wrong- in urban and even rural areas containers abound, plastic pop and water bottles are trash everywhere, and could be washed out and used in a real pinch. In true wilderness, if you’re not on the move, you could dig or build a basin shape and line it with sheet plastic and use the iodine tables there (I’d advise against garbage bags- I hear persistent rumors that there’s insecticide in the plastic of at least some to keep roaches from getting into the garbage). The weak point is thus reduced to being on the move in true wilderness- and that’s where I’d have very little faith in the condom or balloon anyway. I think the chance of abrasion, puncture or rupture would be very high over, say, 20 miles on foot.<br><br>P.S.- for decades, when backpacking, I’ve carried a 6-8 foot length of aquarium tubing, the smallest diameter I can get, and it has often made all the difference on trips. Trying to fill bottles from a spring or stream that just barely trickles is endlessly frustrating without it, but if I can find or make a spot deep enough for one end of the tubing (about a quarter inch), I can set up a siphon, and the canteens fill without work or attention while I'm free to do other things. Makes a HUGE difference in the summer. The longer the length, the easier and faster the siphon where there’s not much slope.<br><br><br>

Chris, Altoid type tins are emphasized because they will always be on you. We can easily lose everything else through misadventure, but if we survive, a securely pocketed tin and knife will do so also. You may get washed overboard in rapids, have to egress a burning aircraft seconds before explosion, or watch an avalanche take everything.Minimum is a conocopia of resources compared to nothing.<br><br>

I agree, this is a real limitation of the mini-kit concept and a condom just isn't much of a solution in my opinion. I look at this in one of 3 ways, depending on the situation:<br><br>1) You can carry the mini-kit in one pocket and something like a platypus water bag in another pocket.<br><br>2) In many circumstances where being in a survival situation is likely, such as on a hike or camping trip, you are going to be carrying a canteen with you anyway, so that is what you use. Or you will have other stuff you can improvise with.<br><br>3) If all you have is the micro-kit and nothing else, and you are so remote that it is unlikely you can even scavenge a littered soda bottle, and you are unable to fabricate something out of natural materials, then, well... your luck just ran out. You would have to take your chances with the water quality. After you get out of the situation, you can see a doctor about any parasites or whatever. <br><br>But I think it is a mistake to think of the mini kit as the beginning and end of your equipment. It is just supplemental to the other things you have with you and those things are just supplemental to what you can draw from your environment. If your mini kit had everything you needed to survive, it would be a backpack (or an RV).<br><br>

CastAway,<br><br>I certainly don’t disagree with anything you said. I do think that the ability to carry water across distances with no water is more important than the ability to purify it- here in the East, even with a map showing every spring and stream, you can easily be 10 miles from the next one.. and without a map, you can be 3 feet away and not know it... but the two abilities sort of come together. <br><br>We have a similar situation with knives, I think. Many of the mini-kits put forth have very little in the way of a knife- x-acto blades, razor blades, maybe a Gerber LST, but most if not all survival-oriented folks rank a knife as a VERY high priority, and count on carrying something more substantial separately (no one is going to be making fuzz sticks or tent pegs with a razor blade).<br><br>So, for the tiny kits, we really have at least two areas where they’re not adequate. That says to me that if you really need one self-contained kit, something that works *independent* of other assumed carry items, then you need something larger. Maybe not much larger, but not an Altoids tin.<br><br>That still leaves a couple of interesting areas for discussion, though:<br><br>Has anyone, ever, really made a condom or balloon work under realistic conditions, including filling from a trickle, iodine treatment, sealing, reopening, and carrying for serious distance, or can we safely chuck that concept and move on?<br><br>If that doesn’t really work, what is the smallest viable product that will (I’ll see how the military survival water bags I’ve ordered work out, and I’ve read some discussion of IV bags), and why isn’t there something better? It’s hard to believe that in the 21st Century, we have absolutely nothing at all that will reliably hold a liter of water and fold into, say, 3 cubic inches or less, at least initially. That’s pretty sad. The tech has to exist.<br><br>Mylar? Lined Tyvek? Wine box liner? Vacuum seal bags? Grocery plastic bags are pretty tough for their bulk, just too big and no neck… what is that they sell tropical fish in? Suggestions?<br><br>

Sometimes you overlook things that are right in front of your face! One of my hobbies is keeping tropical fish. I frequently ship and receive small fish via the mail. The fish are shipped in plastic bags. One of the bag sizes we use is approx 2.25” x 8”. The manufactures offer the bags in different thicknesses. One of these folded up may fit nicely in the PSK and be a short-term alternative to condoms. We seal the bags by spinning the tops and either tying a knot or by doubling over the twisted end and wrap a small rubberband around several times.<br><br>But there’s more! Just this week I received a box where the shipper used a relatively new product called Breathable Bags from Kordon. They are gas permiable, which helps the fish by allowing the CO2 to escape and the oxygen to enter the water. I don’t know if that matters or not with purification tablets. Buit what caught my attention was how elastic they were. The shipped tied them in a tight knot that I could not untie, so I decided to puncture the bag using my index finger, which I can easily do with the traditional poly bags. But I could not do it with these as easily. I’m sure I could have applied much more preasure and puncture the bag, but I didn’t want to harm the fish <s>. So I ended up using a knife to slice the top off. The point is that these bags are far more durable than regular poly bags and my hold up rather well in the PSK tin as well as during actual use in the field.<br><br>Unfortunately, they are not sold through retail. The few folks I know that use them ship enough to justify buying case lots from industry contacts they know. I could get a couple of samples for testing if folks are interested. Anyone planning on being out in the field soon?<br><br>>>>P.S.- for decades, when backpacking, I’ve carried a 6-8 foot length of aquarium tubing, the smallest diameter I can get, … I can set up a siphon, and the canteens fill without work or attention <<<<br><br>Nice tip!<br><br><br>Willie Vannerson<br>McHenry, IL

The vacuum bags that my deer sausage came in worked fine as water containers and form a nice stable cylinder about 3" by 10." They are food grade also. If you want a larger capacity, try the clear oven, baking bags. They are very strong and also food grade. If you can put a turkey in one and bake him at 350 degrees, it must be tough. Put a quart of water in one and made several walk and drop tests. They are very durable. Never had it burst or leak after several drops. Put 2 quarts in and threw it about 15 ft. upwards. If I had not tied it so tight I think it would have survived. If you don't unfold them out of the box, they are very compact. Not to mention very low cost.<br><br>Regards<br>Bruce G.<br><br>

>>One of the bag sizes we use is approx 2.25” x 8”.<<<br><br>I’m trying to envision this.. tropical eels? :-) Maybe the next size up…<br><br>However, if the stored size of the bag were pretty much the same per volume capacity (pretty much impossible, I guess, given surface-to-volume ratio) multiple smaller containers would be preferable- get all your eggs out of one basket, so to speak.<br><br>>>They are gas permiable, which helps the fish by allowing the CO2 to escape and the oxygen to enter the water…. Buit what caught my attention was how elastic they were <<<br><br>Sounds like expanded PTFE, with a smaller pore size than Gore-Tex, thus avoiding all that licensing overhead.. but I’d expect that to be opaque. Were these transparent?<br><br>>>Unfortunately, they are not sold through retail. The few folks I know that use them ship enough to justify buying case lots from industry contacts they know.<<<br><br>BUT, at the probable cost in bulk, some enterprising outfitter might be able to mark these up 100 percent, maybe 200 percent, and they’d still be cheap for those just wanting a few- probably cheaper than (good) condoms…<br><br><br><br>

I'm on the run here, as usual, but to help answer this question let me share some personal experience.<br><br>1. Still water and condoms are difficult to deal with in my experience. After unrolling, you can pull them through the water, holding the opening open, to fill; works moderately well. Best solution I've found is to improvise some manner of container using the aluminum foil in your mini kit or leaves, bark, what have you, and then pour into the condom.<br><br>2. Condoms work best with running water. If there's no kitchen tap at hand you need to look for nature's version. Thus, a stream is the easist to use, best if you build a small dam/water fall, so to speak, to fill it under. More pressure, more water in the condom. <br><br>3. Haven't yet figured a good way to get water directly from a small seep if you have to suck it up to get any water.<br><br>4. I once made a dam to create a small pool from a larger seep. Siphon didn't work great, but it did work. Biggest problem was the minimal quantities, a real PITA. I wouldn't try it for real unless there were no other viable options. Best bet is to just stick with the seep unless you have very good alternates and reason to move.<br><br>5. Storage is a problem. Coat pocket works well, as does a cargo pant pocket if you're not going far. Spare sock, glove, or an improvised container from aluminum foil can be made. The condoms I've tried have proved very resilient, but, it's just a condom and serves only as a last resort. That's the most critical point. It's a last resort, not your first choice.<br><br>The condom's big advantage is that it is a very small package and stores well for many years. So far I haven't found anything better for a mini-kit. Once you move to larger kits, lots of other better choices. But, larger kits have drawbacks.<br><br>And, you can always carry some better container separately in a pocket. Lots of choices from zipper lock bags on up. Some better than others. If I am going out on a hike or flying, I always carry water in a container(s) on my person. I find the small plastic flasks with curved backs (mil-spec or liquor store) work great in a flight suit or cargo pants. See http://www.equipped.org/pp/pic566.htm With these, I don't really need the condoms for water, but stuff happens. They also have other potential uses...for survival that is. They are elastic, after all. <br><br>Hope this helps,<br><br>Doug Ritter<br>Editor<br>Equipped To Survive

Point well taken, Chris.<br><br>I guess my question was answered. How would the survival tins help with obtaining potable water? They don't- at least to any real degree. After reading these discussions, I don't consider survival tins "enough," but I do consider them better than nothing.<br><br>While we're all on the subject of gathering water, I'll share a little trick that allows you to heat canteens that have the plastic tops. Forgive me if everyone knows about this already, but I think it's pretty cool.<br><br>You will need two key rings and one metal clip (Clip=The ones found on belt loops or money wallets that keys clip to.)<br><br>Get an aluminum canteen. Make sure it is not the kind with the plastic screw threats already molded to the top. You want the kind with the plastic cap that is connected to the canteen with a chain.<br><br>Carefully bend the chain link open where it connects to the canteen body.<br><br>Attach one key ring to the canteen body where the chain connected. There should already be a smaller ring to fit your key-sized ring onto. If the chain attaches directly to the canteen, then use a #5 split ring. (Get them at fishing gear places; these are the ones that fit onto the Leatherman Tool Lanyard rings.)<br><br>Attach the metal clip to the ring you just put on the canteen body.<br><br>Finally, attach the key ring to the chain connected to the plastic top.<br><br>After making sure everything is snug and there are no gaps, you now have a removable top on the canteen. You can now heat your canteen without worrying about any plastic melting. With the key ring, you can slide a wire through and hang it over a fire, or place it directly on coals and get it out by slipping a stick in.<br><br>If you always keep a canteen cup mated to the canteen, you have a reasonable survival mess kit. I pair this up with a fanny pack of necessary survival items that always goes with me whenever I leave a campsite.<br><br><br>Peace and God Bless America<br><br>Chris

Bill, Ill be helping to move cattle in a few weeks, way up in the mountains above Santa Barbara Calif. I hope to get the freshwater fishing review done at that time. If you want me to field test them I will. Another expediant water container is a good felt hat, and there are even plastic covers. My horse thinks of my hat as her canteen now. <br><br>

Doug,<br><br> Have not seen mil-spec or (liquor store?) flasks of this type. Where do you find them. Coghlan flasks are everywhere. Are they the same? <br><br>

>>Still water and condoms are difficult to deal with in my experience. After unrolling, you can pull them through the water, holding the opening open, to fill; works moderately well.<<<br><br>Sounds like a larger pool than we typically have to deal with in this area. This is one technique that might work with the condom that wouldn’t work at all with a balloon.<br><br>>>Best solution I've found is to improvise some manner of container using the aluminum foil in your mini kit or leaves, bark, what have you, and then pour into the condom.<<<br><br>I wouldn’t have thought that this would work at all, beyond the unexpanded volume of the condom, without tap pressure or at least a fall of a few feet.<br><br>>>I once made a dam to create a small pool from a larger seep. Siphon didn't work great, but it did work. Biggest problem was the minimal quantities, a real PITA. I wouldn't try it for real unless there were no other viable options. Best bet is to just stick with the seep unless you have very good alternates and reason to move.<<<br><br>My experience using the tubing is mostly in MD, VA, PA and CT, where most streams nearly dry up in summer, and turn into little rivulets over rocks- if you’re lucky. I try to find or make a spot where it’s flowing quickly, with just enough depth/force to cover the end of the tubing, which I place a small rock on top of to anchor. In one spot I used to walk to often, we found that it took almost 20 minutes to get a quart of water (that was with a 6 foot tube on a shallow slope- would have been faster with longer tube or more slope)- but it took no attention, so you could let it flow while making camp, cooking, even overnight- just swap bottles every so often once it’s going. An hour and a half per gallon is not bad at all if you don’t have to work at it. Without the tubing, it would have taken forever- no way to submerge a container, even a shallow cup, without building a pretty good size dam. I’ve also used it to tap ground water seeping out of the walls of a quarry. I can’t see how you could use it to expand a condom at all, though.<br><br><br>

A few pop up on ebay auction under 'survival' @$ 6.50 occasionally. They are a translucent plastic shaped much like a tulip wine glass with a narrow opening. <br><br>

Chris,<br><br>I think Hunter is referring to Doug's "small plastic flasks with curved backs (mil-spec or liquor store)". I get the feeling you're referring to the military pilot's survival water bag thingies.<br><br><br>

Mil-spec is generally called USAF Pilot's Flask. see: http://www.equipped.org/pp/pic729.htm<br><br>Yes, the Coghlan flask is the same, one size only. You can find smaller and larger sizes at many liqour outlets, at least around here. There is also a Lexan version of this sort of flask, but it's quite a bit bulkier.<br><br>Doug Ritter<br>Editor<br>Equipped To Survive

The bottles you refer to are a component of the Navy survival kit/water wing for crews not flying with ejection seats. I don't have an item number readily available.<br>I cannot envision a scenario where a condom would be suitable or necessary for water collection or storage.<br>Call me a skeptic if you will. I was dismayed with the issue army survival vests that are IMHO woefully inadequate. I juiced mine up pretty well when I was on flight status. I couldn't imagine using the issue kit in an emergency any more than I can get an appreciation for the usefullness of the minimal supplies that fit in an altoids (or equivalent) tin. <br>Sorry!<br><br>Jeffery S. Anderson, M.D.<br><br>

As I said, my experience, your mileage may vary. Better than nothing, almost anything is better, but nothing's as small and well packaged that I have found.<br><br>Doug Ritter<br>Editor<br>Equipped To Survive

Jeffery,<br><br>Well, perhaps I have a vivid imagination? :-)<br><br>I cannot argue that what comes in the standard U.S. pilot's survival kit is deficient in many respects, or at least not as good as it might be. I've answered a lot of emails relating to this subject the last few weeks, mostly with nothing more than pointers to information on this site. It's not hard, nor particularly expensive to improve upon the standard survival vest. But that's a lot more equipment than I choose to carry on my person as last chance gear. Then again, I'm not going into combat in Afghanistan .<br><br>Mini-kits come under the heading of much better than nothing. A nice to have luxury that can buy you some piece of mind, comfort and convenience and save some energy. Nobody, least of all me, has suggested they are "THE ANSWER." They are one solution; one I just happen to like for lots of reasons including they are fun to develop. <br><br>Condoms are one answer to water storage. Just because I include one doesn't mean you or anyone else has to, or that you or anyone else has to carry a mini-kit. It serves a purpose for me, but it's hardly perfect.<br><br>While I have never personally done the deed with only my kit, each of the components of my kit has been tested and does more or less what it's supposed to do. I'll survive quite nicely in most circumstances, thank you, with what is in it along with my other don't-leave-home'without-it gear.<br><br>I do know USAF survival instructors who have done very nicely with a far worse mil-spec "parachute" kit." But then they would have done OK with nothing but their knife. <br><br>You pay's your money and takes your chances. This is a place to exchange ideas and experiences, each of us has to decide what works for us. My kit works for me.<br><br>Doug Ritter<br>Editor<br>Equipped To Survive

Beachdoc, Ebay has seen a few on auction. White sealed reflective plastic in a OD sack? Contains; water flask, mag bar, S/S/ pocket utility knife, suunnto compass,TRA-CON fishing kit, wire saw, brass snare wire, water tablets, signal mirror, space blanket and a few other items. They're selling @ approx. $75 which is way below individual cost Not the best assembly, but the price value is a good jump start to better things.<br><br>

your right. I just make like Gunga Din when I go anywhere ( He was regimental waterboy in a Kipling poem and became a hero. I assume, being properly hydrated among "mad dogs and Englishmen who go out in the mid day sun", he kept his head )<br><br>

I know the poem well... "you're a better man than I am...". I confess I have trouble divorcing the memory from Cary Grant's (Archibald Leach's) voice...<br><br>This discussion has gotten a little more heated than I intended, and more than I think is warranted by the subject. Not that any one individual has crossed a line, just that the sum total of what's been said seems to have people choosing sides, and that certainly wasn't the intent of any of my posts.<br><br>I'll be the first to admit that I haven't tried to use a condom at all for water storage, much less in a wilderness environment. Perhaps it distends more easily than I had envisioned, perhaps it unties more easily as well. Doug seems to have experimented with it to at least some degree; I have not, at all.<br><br>On the other hand, there have been some new alternatives proposed here, especially in billvann's post. I respectfully suggest that we all try to stay open to new alternatives. We're all interested in the best options available, not just in proving pet theories, are we not?<br><br><br>

I had a " pet theory" once. It got run over by a car named reality. I figure just about every philosophy, gear preference and acumulated experience represented by our forum members would " soldier through" a real situation. <br><br>

>>We're all interested in the best options available, not just in proving pet theories, are we not?<<<br><br>And that, my friends, is the bottom line. Two points made. One is that "best options" is plural. There is often more than one way to skin a cat. The other is that the great thing about this place is that we get a diverse sample of views and experiences and we can all learn from that. None of has all the answers and anyone can come up with a great idea. In my experience some of the best ideas come from out in left field based on experience having not a thing to do with survival, per se, such as some of the novel and new ideas presented in this thread. The exchange of ideas is what this is all about. It's what makes this community so valuable...and fun!<br><br>I'm off to northern Arizona for a couple days of R&R...and perhaps a wee bit of equipment testing. :-) Have a great weekend, everyone!<br><br>Doug Ritter<br>Editor<br>Equipped To Survive

My son and I pack two multi-purpose cooking bags (10"x16") they come with very compact plastic tie clips. We experimented with sandwich and freezer bags but they both tended to leak at the perforations - these cooking bags do not come on a roll so that is not an issue. The bags are tough and seal well with the provided clips.<br><br>We carefully fold them into a very compact package, held small by winding nylon cord around them.<br><br>Although if I ever have to use my mini kit I hope to have my pocket carry and my canteen with me.<br><br>Clive<br><br><br>

Hey PRESUMEDLOST...<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I just recently ordered some “3-pint pilot’s survival water bags”, apparently Desert Storm vintage (unissued) they look to be the most compact containers I’ve seen other than balloons and condoms, the material looks like something like IV bag stuff, with a neck having a zip lock closure. I think these will be flatter/smaller than the Platypus bags, but I’m not optimistic that even they’ll store small enough for the smallest kits.<p><hr></blockquote><p>...would you please tell me where you found them and how I might find some? I have looked locally and on the web, and have never found any mention of them even, except here on Doug's site.<br><br>Thanks.<br><br>Stay safe,<br>J.T.

Jet,<br><br>Wish I could point you to a stable source, but I just happened upon them on eBay. The search I was using was probably something like “water surviv* -kni*” (without the quotes). As Chris says, you have to filter out the hundreds of ads for $15 “Rambo” knives, and take pity on the souls who think their survival is worth $15.<br><br>It was a Dutch auction for 6 of the bags, I bid on 6 and someone else outbid me on 1, the seller obligingly coughed up an extra to meet the demand, so I suppose it’s possible that they have one or two more. I haven’t received mine yet.<br><br>The seller’s eBay ID is “hardcorps”, no web site listed, but the contact I was given to arrange payment was emshazmat1@aol.com. Discouragingly, though, part of their eBay listing reads “We do our sales ONLY through EBAY auctions and at Local Militaria/Gunshows in the Texas Area. DIRECT mail order sales have been DISCONTINUED”. I should have downloaded the picture, but it disappeared FAST after the auction. <br><br>Chris seems to indicate in his post that they show up from time to time, but I hadn’t seen them before.<br><br>Hope this is some help…<br><br><br>

I have condoms in my kit, also, and share in the reservations I've read here. I've noticed that some forumites have FoodSaver or similar vacuum packers. I cut off a JUMBO hunk of bag stock (12" x 18") and put my kit in the southwest corner of the bag before vacuum packing. Then shrink and seal. <br><br>The "tails" of the bag fold up easily around the tin. They're held with a jumbo rubber band cut from a bike inner tube (also a fire starter). When you need your kit, just cut off the smallest corner of the bag needed to release the vacuum and slip your tin out, and you now have a pretty large water container. There's excess plastic, so roll up and tape/tie to carry.<br><br>

>>, try the clear oven, baking bags. They are very strong and also food grade. <<<br><br>Thanks- I’ve read this suggestion a couple of different places, but yesterday I finally got around to purchasing some. I opted for the smaller (not turkey size) "Reynolds Oven Bags", 5 to a box.<br><br>I need to experiment some more, but preliminary results look very good. I’ve folded and re-folded one of these bags tightly several times, and there’s no sign of fatigue failure at the corners of creases. The stuff does seem to be very strong for it’s weight, MUCH more so than polyethelene, and the size (10” x 16” with the opening on a 10” edge) is about ideal. It seems this would likely be both more durable and much easier to fill and reuse than a condom or balloon, and it folds very flat and thin, or, when folded and then rolled tightly, is not really much larger than a condom. You do have to take care not to trap air in it. <br><br>If my water-holding and resealing tests go well, I think this is the solution I’ve been looking for even for the smallest “Altoids tin” kits.<br><br>I think one of the things that kept me from trying it until now is just the box they come in- these could have been packed in something a tenth that size, and the box gives the impression that they must take up much more space than they really do. <br><br>I wonder what sort of polymer this is? Could it be Mylar? I don’t think I’ve ever seen Mylar without a metallic coating of some sort…<br><br><br>

Inspired by this discussion and hunter's post, I did the same thing yesterday (bought and tested oven bags for holding water) with similarly positive results. Although I could only find the turkey-sized bags which are too large, and the seam was leaking on the sample I tested. I was able to create a new seam with my FoodSaver (run it through 2 sealing cycles as it takes more heat to melt this material). The new seam held well and I was able to make more convenient-sized bags, especially one sized about like a 1.5 liter Evian water bottle. I had good luck closing the top per billvann's procedure of spinning the bag, doubling it over and wrapping with a twist-tie. It really held water even up-side-down. One survived extended handling while full and even some moderate stabbing with a ball-point pen and I finally developed a pin-hole in another after dropping it in the bath-tub a couple times from about 2 feet high.<br><br>I would say that based on this limited experience that the oven bag has the potential to be practical, much more so than a condom, and it would be pretty compact when properly stored. You would still have to handle it with extreme care, obviously, when full of water if you expect it to last several days in a survival situation, but it is worlds ahead of a condom, which I don't think is worth even its negligible weight and size, based on my testing of them.<br><br>However, compared to a 1-gallon Ziplock freezer bag, it wasn't as durable, not nearly as convenient to open and close, and only a little more compact. In the end, I decided to stick with my Ziplock for now. I could see the oven bag being a good choice where the need to trim down a little more bulk is crucial and I may use one in the future for that reason.<br><br>On a side-note, while shopping for oven bags, I noticed a (new?) style of zip-lock bag that (according to the packaging) is pleated so that it will stand upright and stay open all by its self for easy filling, sort of like a bucket. That might be a convenient feature for survival use. It would allow unattended filling from a siphon or through a make-shift filter, or free up a hand when scooping water from a shallow source. I may look into testing some in the future. Anybody have any experience with these?<br><br>

>>However, compared to a 1-gallon Ziplock freezer bag, it wasn't as durable<<<br><br>This surprises me. Of course, I think I’m more concerned with abrasion resistance, rather than burst resistance. Dropping any of these while full in the woods when you need it is going to be a Real Bad Idea. On the other hand, the oven bags seemed to me that they would resist wear from packing and re-packing the kit much better- polyethylene seems to get bumpy with abrasion and develop pinholes pretty easily.<br><br>Note that with any of these failure tends to be much less catastrophic than with a condom or balloon. Pinholes are easy to spot, lose water slowly, and may be reparable with tape.. I think that’s a stark contrast to the way a water balloon expires.<br><br>>>not nearly as convenient to open and close<<<br><br>No argument there.<br><br>>>and only a little more compact<<<br><br>Well, in trying to use a ziplock style bag in small kits, I haven’t been pleased with the “zipper” part. It takes up space, it's springy and doesn’t want to fold, and I’m afraid that folding that part multiple times, and creasing it, as I’d have to for the smallest kits, would compromise it’s sealing ability anyway, at least over time. <br><br>The oven bag seems to me to store very flat indeed by comparison. For instance, I think one of these and a couple of ties could be stored in a wallet and forgotten about, and it would still be viable years later if needed.<br><br><br>

>>polyethylene seems to get bumpy with abrasion and develop pinholes pretty easily.<<<br><br>Yes, this is not the perfect material by any stretch. The ziplock I happened to be testing yesterday was a particularly tough variety. I don't have the exact product name handy (sorry). There is certainly a lot of variation in thicknesses and strengths and some would be lousy while others might be better than that. In any case, in directly comparing the ziplock I had in my hand and the oven bag I had in my hand, I felt the ziplock was holding up better and I would have more confidence in actually using it in the field. Just my impressions and not a real field test, but both would be usable.<br><br>>>Well, in trying to use a ziplock style bag in small kits, I haven’t been pleased with the “zipper” part<<<br><br>Yes, that's the problem in packing them and certainly the oven bag is going to avoid that problem and get smaller, too. It boils down to how much space you have, and like I said, I would use the oven bag if that last little bit of space were crucial, which it would be in a wallet or an Altoids tin.<br><br>I wasn't intending to dismiss the oven bag in my post above, but I thought it would be helpful to compare it to something that most people are very familiar with and which is also a pretty good solution to this problem. <br><br>The set-up I currently am using is probably a bit different than what most people are using. The core of my kit is a micro kit with no purification means and no water container in order to keep the size/weight to a minimum (it's 1.1 oz.). I haven't gotten one of those neat vials for the Potable Aqua, so I have mine in the original bottle which I carry separate from the micro-kit. The ziplock I carry is rolled up, starting at the zipper edge so the zipper is inside, making a long, thin tube. I then take the "tube" and wrap it around the bottle from top to bottom (not around the circumference like you would expect). This combination of Potable Aqua and Ziplock is then slid into a vacuum bag and sealed forming a single unit. I feel like that protects the zipper pretty well and avoids kinking it excessively, but I will be keeping an eye on it over time to make sure. This vacuum-packed unit is carried loose and the size difference between what it is and what it would be with an oven bag is not important to me since the bottle is really the thing that is determining it's bulk. This set-up probably would not work well inside a typical tin where the oven bag would be a better choice.<br><br>This isn't the most compact set-up for water treatment, but I am comfortable with it for now. Some day I might get around to getting a small vial for the Potable Aqua and then I might move that into my micro kit along with an oven bag and twist-tie. But for now the space isn't an issue and I feel a little more confident in the Ziplock. <br><br>Thanks for the discussion!<br><br>

I have done some limited testing with mylar balloons, they seem to have pretty good strength, but difficult to fill. Any one else tried these.<br><br>Ted Fisher<br><br>

Ted, didn't you post about this idea back in March? I've been anxiously waiting to hear about your test results! After this much time, I think a full-blown article with illustrations would be in order, not just one sentence and a question!<br><br>

>>Yes, this is not the perfect material by any stretch. The ziplock I happened to be testing yesterday was a particularly tough variety. I don't have the exact product name handy (sorry).<<<br><br>If it is handy sometime, I’d appreciate knowing. There are no perfect materials…<br><br> >>I felt the ziplock was holding up better and I would have more confidence in actually using it in the field. Just my impressions and not a real field test, but both would be usable.<<<br><br>I haven’t done any real field testing either- I think my negative bias towards the abrasion resistance of polyethylene comes from all of the objects that I’ve stored in zip lock bags and thrown in a drawer over the years. After just a couple of years of encountering other objects in the drawer, they look pretty funky and beat up, I wouldn’t trust them- but then, they’re probably not the best available. The oven bags have a surface that feels harder and more slippery- seems like it should be more abrasion resistant, but it could surprise me.<br><br>I agree that both are useable, in the end it probably boils down to space more than anything. The convenience of the zipper is certainly worth something.<br><br>>>I wasn't intending to dismiss the oven bag in my post above, but I thought it would be helpful to compare it to something that most people are very familiar with and which is also a pretty good solution to this problem. <<<br><br>Not at all, I appreciate the insight.<br><br>>> The ziplock I carry is rolled up, starting at the zipper edge so the zipper is inside, making a long, thin tube. I then take the "tube" and wrap it around the bottle from top to bottom (not around the circumference like you would expect). This combination of Potable Aqua and Ziplock is then slid into a vacuum bag and sealed forming a single unit. I feel like that protects the zipper pretty well and avoids kinking it excessively, but I will be keeping an eye on it over time to make sure.<<<br><br>Sounds to me like it should work- it’s the sharp kinking that worries me, and you’ve avoided that. Different kit conditions, different solutions.<br><br>>>Thanks for the discussion!<<<br><br>Ditto- learning is why I’m here. For my larger kits I’ll probably just use the military survival bags, and in pouches I have Platypus bags, but it’s good to know what might work in different conditions.<br><br>So far, I’m pleased with the oven bags for the smallest kits. I just filled one of these and threw it around a bathtub. The closure device (a cinch-strap) that came with it was useless- almost impossible to cinch without a third hand, and it popped right off. Too bad, it’s very flat. I ended up spinning the bag and tying a half-hitch in the top, and when I slammed it around some more, the knot actually untied itself from the pressure without the bag failing first. I dropped it a few times from about 3-4 feet. Of course, by that time the outside of the bag, and thus the knot, was wet, and since it’s sort of a hard and non-stretchy material, the water acted as a lubricant on the knot. From other comments here, they may also not all be uniformly strong. <br><br>Has anyone tried any of the new bags with a slider? I’m just curious as to whether there’s always a tiny gap there to leak, as you’d expect, or whether they designed it out somehow.<br><br><br>

It is true I have been lazy in posting any information in this matter. I will have to take some time and organize what I have found out.<br><br>Thanks<br>Ted Fisher<br><br>

After the suggestion of using mylar balloons as emergency water bags was made some time back, I went out and bought some at a local grocery store. They sold the large 18" ones deflated, but the smaller 9" & 4" ones only came inflated. I got an 18" round one, a 9" round one and an 18" heart shaped one (on the premise that, turned upside down, it would have a broad base and narrow "spout"). The 4" ones didn't look like they'd hold a useful amount, but I ended up being surprised how much these things held, so I may go back and get one, just for the pursuit of knowledge.<br><br>First, I began by testing the 18" round one.<br><br>Getting water into these things is tough! The necks are tiny and tight. I had to stick a piece of teflon tubing down the neck to pour water through. Small passage = small flow. Obviously, this was an unacceptable situation.<br><br>Getting the water back out is even tougher! They have one-way valves in their necks to prevent air from coming back out as they are inflated. It works real well against water too. Too well. But, I found that if I stuck the same length of teflon tubing down the throat, I could get the water out easier, and sometimes, I could drag the valve out around the tube and rip it out. Drinking out of the bag became easier after that was done.<br><br>I put some water in it and let it sit around for a few days. I hung it, I dropped it (lightly), I laid it down in many different positions (spout down, spout up, spout to the side) and it never leaked. Then, I opened it up and checked the quality of the water. Drinking it was not bad at all. The water had stayed clean, whereas water that sits in my mil-spec 1qt canteen starts to taste like plastic after some time. So, I feel that part was a success.<br><br>After all this messing around with it, I finally just snipped the neck off in the middle. That opened the passage up some little bit, and I could fill it more easily by swishing it back and forth underwater, as Doug says he does with condoms.<br><br>Snipping the neck completely off of the round ones makes them much like an open oven bag, I suppose, in that you have to tie the whole top portion to seal it. Snipping the heart shaped one was better. The slimmer portion near the top of the inverted heart made tying easier. I twisted the top of the heart shaped one and tied it with a twist tie. It worked great except when held upside down, whereupon it began to very slowwwly unwind/untie itself, just due to the weight of the water. Not bad, all in all, but certainly not up to any abuse at all.<br>So, note to self: Tie the large ones in a knot.<br><br>One thing about snipping the necks off:<br>Mylar is tough, but once cut (or, presumably, torn), rips like wet tissue. I destroyed the 18" round one by the time I was done. In order to avoid this with the others, I put a strip of electrical tape on both sides across the top of the balloon just below the neck, and then cut (into the tape with the large heart shaped one, just above it with the small round one). That worked great, but made knot tying more interesting.<br><br>The 18" bags are just freaking big! They hold a LOT of water! It makes them pretty heavy, and rather unwieldy. I got about 200oz into the 18" round one (roughly 6000ml), about 235oz into the 18" heart shaped one (roughly 7000ml). The biggest problem with them was that they were larger and heavier than my infant nephews. Seriously, I would be scared to carry them, expecting them to burst if I squeezed them too hard. And it seems a waste to carry such a large bag/balloon and only plan on using part of its capacity. Better to carry a smaller bag/balloon and fill it completely.<br><br>The 9" round one held 40oz (just under 1200ml) when held shut with a twist tie. When I tried to tie a knot in it, that amount fell dramatically to about 12 great big whopping ounces (350ml). <br>So, note to self: Use a twist tie for the small ones.<br><br>About paint:<br>Whether tying with a twist tie or into a knot, I twisted the top of the balloon around tightly first. This had the effect of stripping the paint off! After tying the spout to seal it, and then untying it to drink, the mylar was clear and the electrical tape had become painted the color of the balloon! Ugh! Drinking dried paint off the spout of my emergency water bottle doesn't seem like a particularly wise idea, but maybe I won't care in a true survival situation. Nevertheless, it's enough to convince me to continue to pursue other options.<br><br>I'd be interested in hearing other results.<br><br>Stay safe,<br>J.T.

Thanks for the great mylar baloon test results, JT. Sounds like there is some potential there. I can't believe how much water they held. Must be pretty strong stuff.<br><br>>>Drinking dried paint off the spout of my emergency water bottle doesn't seem like a particularly wise idea<<<br><br>I'd have to agree with that. Maybe these mylar baloons come in some clear varieties?<br><br>

Destructive testing- oven bag… just a follow-up;<br><br>I’ve continued playing with these things. As I noted in a previous post, there was some trouble keeping the top closed for this sort of abuse- the provided cinch strap was useless, and knots tended to slip. I didn’t try a twist-tie.<br><br>After several more drops from 3-4 feet the knot slipped again, and had to be re-tied again. This time I reduced the amount of water (I forgot to measure, but I’m guessing it was well over a liter, maybe a liter and a half) and made the knot very tight.<br><br>Several more drops later I was getting bored and doing spinning tosses into the tub, and it finally failed. Interestingly, the bottom seam sprung a small leak on the same toss that caused a 4 inch diameter bulge in the material, protruding about a half-inch. This would seem to mean that the seam is approximately as strong as the material- no point in it being much stronger.<br><br>Note that neither failure was catastrophic- the pinhole leak could be stopped temporarily simply by setting the bag with that part topmost (hard to describe but true), and the bulge was not a rupture.<br><br>After the pinhole leak appeared I deliberately punctured the bag with a forefinger. It was a bit harder than I thought, and the oven bag material stretched more than I thought it would, but puncture resistance is surely the weak point of any of these solutions- anything truly sharp would have ended it instantly.<br><br>Conclusions- it’s a lot more durable than I thought. I’m guessing that the “burst strength” of either the oven bags or zip-lock freezer bags is more than sufficient- in the “real world” dropping the bag would more than likely result in a puncture from a twig or sharp pebble long before the bag actually reached bursting strength. Using these for water purification in camp seems very practical, and if reasonably protected from anything sharp, I think you could backpack it cross-country.<br><br>All in all, for the very flat, compact package, I’m pretty impressed with these oven bags for the smallest kits, and they sure cost a whole lot less than the military survival water bags. I'm seriously thinking of stashing one in my wallet.<br><br><br>

>>If it is handy sometime, I’d appreciate knowing<<<br><br>The box is labeled "Glad Zipper Storage bags" and it also said "double lock seal" and "new thicker bag". It is the 1-gallon size. I assumed it was a freezer bag because it was thick, but the box didn't say "freezer" on it. It was similar to other freezer bags I have handled (who knows, probably the identical product with different labeling).<br><br>>>Has anyone tried any of the new bags with a slider? <<<br>I haven't tested these for possible field use, but I was given one recently when I left my mother's house with some left-over food. I noticed that the slider was in fact designed to seal completely when it reached the fully-closed position. A rather ingenious design, really. I also remember having some trouble with the slider after opening and closing it a number of times. I think it wasn't engaging the zipper or something. Also, the zipper on that bag seemed a bit flimsy. I am not drawn to this design for survival use since the slider adds some bulk and the regular slider-less style is simpler and seems more reliable and robust to me. Also, the added convenience is of minimal importance to me (no real functionality is added by the slider). Maybe the design will improve with time.<br><br>

Thanks for new test results on the oven bag. They seem similar to what I observed. The "bulging" you described was concerning me with my bags. I was getting some small bulges from handling (not delicate handling), maybe when a fingertip gripped too firmly. It seems like the stretched area forming the bulge would be thinner and more likely to suffer a puncture. The ziplock we discussed in some other posts didn't have any bulges even after some dropping. But still, for it's size, the oven bag very much impressed me and was quite usable.<br><br>I wonder if there would be any problems caused by introducing an iodine tablet to a water bag. Would the chemical weaken the bag or cause any undesireable chemical reaction with the various plastics of these different bags (oven, ziplock, mylar, condom, platypus, etc)? Normally the tablet sinks to the bottom and takes a while to dissolve. The point where the tablet contacts the container would have a high concentration of iodine for a while. Doug's article on alternate containers for Potable Aqua tablets illustrates how corrosive these tablets can be to many materials.<br><br>If anyone has done any testing like this or has a knowledge of chemistry, please let us know!<br><br>

I've got an idea for closing them. In my freezer, I use 1/4" binder clips, the little black metal ones. Just twist the neck and clamp it down. They way nothing, taking up almost no room, and have a hell of a grip.<br><br>I'll try it tonight and report, but I bet that they will hold as well as the plastic of the bag itself.<br><br>

>>I use 1/4" binder clips, the little black metal ones. Just twist the neck and clamp it down. They way nothing, taking up almost no room, and have a hell of a grip.<<<br><br>Hmm. Sounds like it should work, and pretty conveniently, but while I've used binder clips, I'm having trouble envisioning this size. Is quarter-inch the nominal jaw opening? If so, I don't think I've seen them that small.<br><br>What might be tiny for a day pack or even a fanny pack can seem pretty huge when trying to make space for it in these itsy-bitsy tins. It would probably have to compete with wire/plastic twist-ties, which really are small...<br><br>Just as an experiment I have installed one of the oven bags in my wallet- it made no noticeable difference in thickness (ok, I took some old receipts and business cards out). <br><br>I think it might be possible to develop a creditable "wallet kit".. I'm now carrying a fresnel lens, pen, P-38 can opener, and the oven bag in mine. With the addition of a Spydercard and the idea of substituting a "flint" rod for the pen in the fold, and maybe a Brunton floating-disk compass.. you'd have firestarting, knife, compass, a can opener, striker, firestarting/map reading lens, and water carrying capability all in a wallet... not a bad start. I could even add one of these "featherweight" mirrors that I've cut down to credit card size.. definitely have to get rid of some credit cards, though...<br><br>

>>clips, I'm having trouble envisioning this size. Is quarter-inch the nominal jaw opening?<<<br><br>Yep. I buy them, and 3/16" ones, from my local office supply store in little white boxes that have (IIRC) 25 in them. The 3/8" size is more common, and probably too big. I've seen 1/4" ones in little tubs at Staples.<br><br>Now for the results:<br>The 3/16 grips the tightest, but it is a pain to get them on. So much so, that I couldn't do it with my off-hand and using my strong hand clubwise (I've always figure that if I can't do it with my weak hand while my strong hand busted up, it isn't going to happen in a survival situation).<br><br>The 1/4" didn't have to be wedged on as tightingly, so that is the size that I'm thinking of going with. I used an old bread bag as my initial testing unit, and repeatedly dropped it from about three feet off the ground. Twenty drops showed no leakage from the neck. Bread bags are thinner and less well built at the seems than a roasting bag, so it sounds good to me.<br><br>The only reservations that I have about the test is that the twisted neck was smaller than that of an oven bag, so it may be nessasary to go up to a 3/8", but if I remember to pick some up at the grocery tommorow, I will be trying it out on a more realistic vessel.<br><br><br><br>

Gentlemen, yall take testing to a science. A lot can be learned on this forum. I just tie a overhand knot, fold it over and put a ty-rap on. You can carry a half dozen small ones easily.<br><br>Regards<br>Hunter

Problem with tie wraps is that they don't always close securely enough to prevent leaks, and untieing an overhand knot one-handed, in the dark, while your hands are cold-numbed is hard to impossible to do without loosing water.<br><br>I might put a higher importance on needing to be able to do things one handed and by touch, but I've spent a summer with my main hand in a cast, so I know first hand (pardon the pun) just how hard that can be.

>>I wonder if there would be any problems caused by introducing an iodine tablet to a water bag. Would the chemical weaken the bag or cause any undesireable chemical reaction with the various plastics of these different bags (oven, ziplock, mylar, condom, platypus, etc)? Normally the tablet sinks to the bottom and takes a while to dissolve. The point where the tablet contacts the container would have a high concentration of iodine for a while. Doug's article on alternate containers for Potable Aqua tablets illustrates how corrosive these tablets can be to many materials…. If anyone has done any testing like this or has a knowledge of chemistry, please let us know!<<<br><br>Seems like a valid question, and nobody’s jumped on it. Almost all of my old Austrian polyethylene bottles from the old backpacking days when we routinely used iodine instead of filtering are permanently stained with a reddish tint- may not be detrimental, but it does show that the material is not impervious.<br><br>I’m willing to do the testing if no one beats me to it. Might take awhile to get my ducks in a row- I don’t want to use my current stock of Potable Aqua tablets, but don’t mind buying more- when I get to someplace that sells them. I had concerns about bags freezing outside, but there’s a laundry tub in the basement. I’ll test one or two types of zip-lock bags, the oven bags, and maybe even a condom- though I think I’d better explain that purchase to a certain lady in advance…

Upgrade on the codom.<br>I use 2 Ultrasound Probe Cover made by Durex in my survival tin <br>This is simular to a heavy duty version of the standard condom and will hold more water.<br>Got them from a hospital supply company over here in the UK.

I appreciate knowing the results- I'll keep an eye out for the small ones next time I'm in an office supply- sounds like they may be worth the space.<br><br>I'd guess that the 1/4" size would work for the small (10" x 16") oven bags I'm using. They do seem to fold flatter than the polyethylene bags, and when I spun/twisted the top to tie them, it was pretty thin.

Made my eyes water when I realised what was being probed!<br><br>But these are great - sterile, non lubricated, round ended and far tougher. Great suggestion, but my nurse friend still can't believe what I wanted them for! <br><br>

The more testing I do with Ziplock-style bags, the less enamored of them I am becoming. It seems that the original sample I was testing was very good, but that level of quality hasn't been consistent across other samples I have tested. The problem I am seeing is some very slight leakage from the zipper, which could result in significant water loss over time. <br><br>The leaky zipper problem seems to affect the pleated designs I tried of both the Ziplock brand and the Glad brand. Because these bags stand-up, it is less of a problem, but still not good. Of the flat-style bags, the Glad brand seems to be of better quality, but testing shows that some of them do leak anyway. I still like the idea of a zipper bag as a compact water storage option, but I will be testing any bag that I intend to pack before I add it to my gear.

You might want to check out the Clear Zip Lock Poly Storage Bags at Safety Central. I have ordered various sizes of these. They are excellent 4mil thick versions, which should stand up to more abuse than your average grocery store brands. When filled full with water and turned upside down, they do leak little drops of water. When filled full with water and laid on their sides, they leak little drops somewhat more slowly. So no, they are not "watertight", at least not when full, not unless stored upright and not if squeezed harshly or otherwise manhandled. But then again, my mil-spec 5qt water bag and mil-spec 2qt soft canteen each did the same thing. I had to make sure I kept them hanging or sitting upright if they were full or nearly so, or they would slowly leak, at least for a while until they had less water in them. So, I consider these particular zip lock bags to be as "watertight" as mil-spec canteens often are, which is to say, good enough for me in an emergency.<br><br>(For what it's worth, I ultimately took my canteens to a local hardware store and fitted their caps with appropriately sized O-rings. That solved the leaking problem. I make sure to keep an extra O-ring for each, along with my Potable Aqua, in the little pockets provided in the canteen covers for the iodine tablets, in case I lose the O-rings already in the caps.)<br><br>The 6"x8" bags (which are actually more like 6"x9") hold 40oz when completely full (roughly 1180ml or so), but will leak somewhat less and are much more managable if fillled with only 30oz or so (900ml). The bigger bags hold ridiculous amounts of water... far more than I would consider realistically portable.<br><br>Oh, and despite the images used to illustrate the product, these bags are, indeed, clear.

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>PresumedLost said:<br><br>"I'll be the first to admit that I haven't tried to use a condom at all for water storage, much less in a wilderness environment. Perhaps it distends more easily than I had envisioned, perhaps it unties more easily as well. Doug seems to have experimented with it to at least some degree; I have not, at all.<br><br>On the other hand, there have been some new alternatives proposed here, especially in billvann's post. I respectfully suggest that we all try to stay open to new alternatives. We're all interested in the best options available, not just in proving pet theories, are we not?"<p><hr></blockquote><p>I've never understood how you could get water into a condom in any useful quantity. It seemed like a silly idea, but those who know more than I all seemed to recommend them. When the idea was called into question here on the forum, I immediately thought, "Oh, good. I was right." End of thinking, end of learning, as it were.<br><br>But then Doug said, "After unrolling, you can pull them through the water, holding the opening open, to fill." That made sense, but I still wasn't sure how much water it would hold. Balloons resist being "blown up". You need pressure to make them do it against their will. Would a condom "inflate" simply from "swishing pressure"? As quoted above, perhaps it distends more easily than I had envisioned. Deciding that perhaps I did indeed need "to stay open to new alternatives," and reminding myself that I should remain "interested in the best options available, not just in proving pet theories," I decided to test out a condom in the wild wild terrain of my apartment bathroom sink.<br><br>Not having stocked up on Penrith Survival Condoms or any other similarly specialized such item, I grabbed one of the basic non-lubricated non-reservoir tipped condoms that I had purchased for my kits. Upon opening it, I found it to have a light layer of dry powder coating it, much like some surgical gloves. Before filling my sink, I rinsed the condom off, turned it inside out and rinsed it off again. Then I began to swish. It worked. I got it full of water. At least a whole whopping 5oz worth (150ml)! Boo, hiss!<br><br>Wondering if I could stretch it out to hold more, I emptied it and blew it up like a big baloon. I estimate it contained a minimum of 450oz (13,500ml)! "Great," I thought, "that should do it." I left it that way for a while, then deflated it. I... could imagine... if I tried... that it was bigger. But then, I could just as easily imagine not. Phooey!<br><br>Then I thought, "What if I squeezed the water to the bottom of the condom? It expanded tremendously when I inflated it; what if I forced it to expand by forcing the water to the bottom with the fingers of one hand, while holding the opening open with the other for another swish?" It took a little bit of dexterity, but it worked. Since I could get about 5oz into the tube of the condom during a normal swish, I'm guessing I could get about 4oz into the tube of the condom while I was squeezing the water already present into the bottom "bulb" which I was creating. Basically, I held the condom in both hands, all 8 fingers wrapped around the tube. I would gently hold the mouth of the condom with the forefinger and thumb of my left hand, while reseasing the tube with all my other fingers except the pinky of my right hand, which was sealing off the bulb at the bottom. Once the tube was filled, I would pinch closed the mouth with the forefinger and thumb of my left hand and then squeeqe each finger closed around the tube one at a time, each one forcing the water in the tube nearer the bulb. Finally, I would release the right pinky and squeeqe the water in the tube into the bulb, before sealing the bulb off with my right pinky again. Each time I did this, I forced the condom to expand like a baloon to accept the additional 4-5oz of water I was squeezing into it.<br><br>After doing this several times, and after the bulb had begun to grow, I would realize that my hands had slowly worked their way toward the mouth of the tube, and that I was getting only perhaps 3oz per swish. When that happened, I would lift the condom out of the water and hold the mouth of it up with my left hand. The weight of all the water in the bulb stretched the condom into a loooong teardrop shape, and it was easy to re-set my right hand lower, with my pinky just above the bulb. When reinserted into the sinkful of water, I was again getting 4oz or so with each swish.<br><br>I continued this process, amazed at how big the bulb of water was growing! Just looking at it, it seemed as much as one of my 500ml store bought water bottles contained! I was impressed! Eventualy, I gave in to curiosity, deciding to see how much water I had collected, rather than trying to see how much I could. I emptied the condom into my graduated Nalgene bottle... it was 34oz (1000ml)! An entire liter! I was astonished. It didn't look like that much when it was in the condom.<br><br>Just for the principle, I did it again; this time filling the condom with more. I wanted to completely fill my 1qt mil-spec canteen. After judging it to be enough, I filled the canteen. Then, I poured the remaining water into my Nalgene bottle... 12oz (350ml)! And that's just where I decided to leave off, it was not at all the most I could squeeze into the condom, and it was an entirely manageable package. The bulb of water it created was a reasonable size, and the condom still had plenty of resiliency and stretchiness left to resist abrasion through flexing. Obviously, it could still be punctured, but it seemed that, with thoughtful handling, it would serve just fine if ever actually needed.<br><br>So, it's official: filled from standing water, a condom can hold more than some canteens. :-)<br><br>Now, how about, as Doug commented, trying to fill a condom from a trickle, siphon or seep? I have no idea. Obviously, this method wouldn't work. But, I suppose, if you could dig and fill a hole, or dam up a trickle to make a pool, then this method would provide a nice quantity.<br><br>Once full, I held the mouth up again, and allowed gravity to pull the bulb down, stretching the rubber tube nicely. Then, I grapped that tube and curled it around into a loop, tying it into a half-bow. This was the only problem with the whole operation, for when trying to UNtie the knot, little bitty droplets of water that were in the bow-loop portion of the knot actually blocked the bow-loop from being able to pull freely through the knot! That was unexpected and troublesome, but I suppose you could just tie the knot around... I don't know... a pencil stub... matches... something?... and that would solve it.<br><br>Anyway, from now on, I will at least consider a condom as a viable Very Small, Emergencies Only water storage device, something I previously have not considered it to be.

Is that a record? 2000 views, Woah!

>>Is that a record? 2000 views, Woah! <<<br><br>And we didn't even put "condoms" in the subject line!

Wow.<br><br>First, thanks for experimenting and sharing the results.<br><br>Many of the reasons that we pick different items for our kits boil down to expecting different scenarios. I may experiment with condoms, but I think I’ll stick with the oven bags (Reynolds 10” x 16” Oven Bags). Here’s why:<br><br>1. What you describe having to go through sounds like a great deal of work and trouble.<br><br>2. I’m mildly concerned about the powder coating you describe. That’s also been described with balloons, by the way. I’m also concerned about untying one, especially without that coating, when the rubber adheres to itself.<br><br>3. Most important, in my time backpacking up and down the Appalachians, I don’t think I’ve seen more than a few water sources where you could submerge a condom all the way and pull it through the water. On the principle that losing altitude in the wilderness is usually foolish and often painful (what goes down must come up), most sources you come accross are near the ridgeline and thus small, just trickles and seeps. If I saw enough water to do what you describe, I’d suspect I was too far downstream, and I might be better off getting my drinking water closer to the source where it's less likely to have been bathed in, or worse. In many of the cases where there was that much water at a spring, say, you wouldn’t want to go through that routine anyway, it would stir up silt and mud that might take a long time to settle.<br><br>Things probably work differently out West where you get a lot more pools and pockets in bare rock, and maybe get a lot more water from larger streams running over rock. It seems like a paradox, but, while there’s generally more water in the East, there’s much less available for drinking in the woods. Ask anyone that’s been on both the Pacific Crest and Appalachian trails. There's also much less chance out West of finding that the creek you just drank water from is straddled by an entire housing development somewhere out of sight upstream. Filters and iodine don't do much for detergent.<br><br>You might want to try one of the oven bags in your experiments. I think I sort of expected them to be sturdy and easier to open and close, which they seem to be, but what impressed me was how small they fold, with a little care to eliminate air. One of these, folded carefully and tightly, takes little more room than a condom, fits easily even in the Altoids-size kit- and I think it might be a lot easier to use.<br>

The folks at Kordon are sending me some samples of their breathable bags, which are used for shipping tropical fish. I will conduct a similar experiment to the oven bags as a comparison. I suspect that the oven bags will be a preferred choice simply becasue of availability. The Kordon bags are not avalable through retail channels yet.<br><br>An interesting aspect of the breathable bags is their ability to pass oxygen and carbon dioxide through the palstic. (all plastic bags do this but to a much lesser degree.) I recall reading that oxygen plays a part in the chemical reaction with iodine in the tablets. Would the Kordon bags have an impact on this process? Or doesn't it matter?

Can’t comment on whether the gas-permeable bags would help or hinder the action of the iodine.. but it’s been proposed that we check the resistance of the various bag-type containers to the corrosive effects of the iodine tablets.<br><br>If nobody beats me to it, I thought I might do this sometime in the next few weeks. I thought I’d just dump some Potable Aqua tablets in each container, fill it, and let it sit in the laundry tub for a month or so, checking for failure or visible changes every so often. If nothing happens with that level and duration of exposure, they’ll probably be just fine in real use. It would be really worth knowing if one of these options fails quickly, though.<br><br>I thought I’d do this with one or two flavors of zip-lock bags, the Reynolds oven bags, maybe a condom and maybe a balloon.<br><br>I don’t know how many samples you’re expecting, or what the timing might be, but if you’re interested and it’s convenient, I’d be glad to include them- send me a private message and we can work it out. If there aren’t enough to spare, though, no big deal- just a thought.<br>

It shouldn't take to long to receive the samples. Send me your snail mail address and I'll forward some to you.

I’m sorry to say that even the relatively-expensive, relatively-heavy military bags I bought don’t score very highly on this point.<br><br>I’ve tried rolling the tops and strapping them as tightly as I can, and they’re fine- until laid down flat, or put under pressure. When that happens, water works it’s way through the rolled-up spout and drips. Slowly, but it drips.<br><br>They do have the belt loops, and as long as they’re carried upright, with no pressure on them, they seem fine. Still, that’s one more point that the Platypus bottles have in their favor- at least the one I’ve used has never leaked- and the Platypus bottles stand upright when full. The military bags do not, making it much harder to avoid it's leaking.<br> <br>So far, the only advantages the military survival bags have is flatness and the belt loop- and easier drying, because of the larger mouth. <br>

Well, that figures…<br><br>Those who have read these threads are aware that I was favorably impressed with the Reynolds Oven Bags, which seem plenty durable, easier to fill than a condom or balloon, and pack far smaller than I thought.<br><br>In preparation for the iodine-resistance tests, I was in the local Giant yesterday evening, and there have been some changes. The former “regular” size oven bag (10” x 16”) is now labeled “small”, and there’s a new “regular” size, 16” x 20”, I think it was- much larger than needed.<br><br>More discouraging, the now “small” size was marked "on sale" with a hand-lettered label on the shelf that said “discontinued item”. <br><br>It wasn’t clear whether this meant that the manufacturer was discontinuing the item, or the store was no longer going to carry it.<br><br>In any case, if anyone here has any interest in these, I’d stock up now. They’re cheap anyway, they’re on sale now, and they may be disappearing for good.<br>

Hey Limey, jtbishop & anyone else who knows,<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Upgrade on the codom.<br>I use 2 Ultrasound Probe Cover made by Durex in my survival tin <br>This is simular to a heavy duty version of the standard condom and will hold more water.<br>Got them from a hospital supply company over here in the UK.<p><hr></blockquote><p>When you say these will hold more water, do you mean more than condoms do in their normal shape? Or do you mean more than condoms do when distended from forced overfilling, as if blown up like a balloon, but with water? I ask because I tested some 4oz and 8oz Playtex "Drop-Ins" ready-formed flexible disposable baby bottle liners, and, while they initially held almost as much (4oz) or more (8oz) than a condom, they would in no way expand like a condom or balloon to hold more water, making them, IMO, somewhat less useful. Before I pursue ultrasound probe cover testing on my own, I figured someone who already owned some and/or had used them might be able to save me the trouble by answering the expandability question for me.<br>Thanks!