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#189085 - 11/24/09 02:06 PM Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right
Doug_Ritter Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/28/01
Posts: 2198
We usually read tales of someone who survives, or not, after doing everything wrong, here's one where a lost hiker did most things right.

Part 1: http://www.scsun-news.com/ci_13844893
Part 2: http://www.scsun-news.com/ci_13848541

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Doug Ritter
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#189094 - 11/24/09 03:02 PM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: Doug_Ritter]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
Interesting. You'd have thought with his previous hiking experience he would've at least been more aware of how much work is involved. It seems he was too surprised at the effort he was going to have to put into staying alive, given his preparations and his history.

I often wonder why people who get in this situation don't backhike the trail. Maybe he was too far in, but from what the story says, he was only a day or so hike away from his point of origin. I could see it was a tough hike to get to where he was when he finally realized he was lost, but if he knew which way he had to go to get out, it seems the effort he expended traipsing around would've served him better backhauling on the trail a ways.

As usual, not enough details in the story to understand the whys and wherefors. I guess based on what was conveyed, he did well enough just staying alive and getting himself found by the seekers.

It does go to show that it don't take much to make a situation bad real quick.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#189097 - 11/24/09 03:37 PM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: Doug_Ritter]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
I am familiar with that portion of the Gila Wilderness, and there are a few odd things about the story. But first, the gentleman did know enough to keep himself alive, and he did do enough of the right things.

"failure of the filter system" is not an emergency, since boiling is just as good. I am surprised that he evidently became dehydrated. The Gila Wilderness, especially the Middle Fork, is extremely well watered. The numerous fords on the Middle Fork trail are typically one the biggest obstacles to travel. The water is quite good, especially in the upper reaches of the Wilderness where he was. I usually drank untreated water there.

Backtracking is not his best option,but any map will indicate that Willow Creek is on the West Fork of the Gila. A straight down canyon walk, again plentifully supplied with water, would have taken him back to his car.

From the story, it seems clear that he could improve his map reading skills.

One other thing. People often underestimate how difficult it is for airborne observers to spot someone on the ground. A signal mirror, or the mirror on the compass in your 10 essentials, is far, far, and away the best way to get the attention of someone in the air.

One final comment. He couldn't get into the cabin? In my misspent youth, I was the ultimate ultralight backpacker, carrying a Forest Service master key on my compass lanyard. It opened the door to the resolution of many problems.
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Geezer in Chief

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#189100 - 11/24/09 03:59 PM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: hikermor]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
Hmmm, not much sympathy here for someone who gets lost on a planned hike. Maps & compass (correctly used) would have done the trick, but a GPS to double check would have been a good investment. A $100 GPS (that you can use for years) or a couple extra days charge on your rental car.
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Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

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#189107 - 11/24/09 05:36 PM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: Doug_Ritter]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
Interesting story, although how you end up getting 18 miles lost with a map and compass is a little baffling unless this rambling hiker went over the edge.

Although saying that I have come across folks in the hills who have no idea how to use a map and compass even though they have diligently packed one away in their packs prior to their little adventures.


Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (11/24/09 05:41 PM)

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#189109 - 11/24/09 05:48 PM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
unimogbert Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 882
Loc: Colorado
It's possible that the trail junction wasn't obvious except if the sign was standing up. I've seen junctions above treeline that were pretty much invisible because the side trail was so seldom used.

Of course he should have been expecting a junction anytime now... but I've walked past junctions on occasion. (Didn't continue TOO awfully far afterwards though.)

My buddy and I came across a fellow way up on the tundra in Rocky Mtn National Park who was doing a solo trip and had forgotten his compass. He wasn't lost yet but knew he needed the tool. So he asked to borrow one of ours. I loaned mine and when his trip was over he mailed it back to me with a note that said he'd had a great trip. At least he knew what he needed!

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#189113 - 11/24/09 06:43 PM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: unimogbert]
Tyber Offline
Sheriff
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/27/09
Posts: 304
Loc: ST. Paul MN
An accident is a series of mistakes.

they key is to know when you are about to make one too many.


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#189124 - 11/24/09 08:55 PM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: Doug_Ritter]
Leigh_Ratcliffe Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 1355
Loc: United Kingdom.
I think that the loss of the water filter was the critical mishap.

Most modern filters will allow you to process a litre of water in about 1-5 mins. Depending on capacity. Assuming that its a filter and not a purifier you are still going to have to chemically treat the water with chlorine or iodine.

Let us assume that the water is cold so you need a contact time of about 30mins. Just to be certain.

Call it a maximum of 45mins per bottle of water.

That looks bad but normally you would be drinking one bottle whilst the rest are "fizzing."

Under those conditions you probably need at least 6litres per day. I reckon that he was getting no more than 2-3.

Dehydration impairs your ability to think clearly and to digest your food. Which impairs your bodys ability to generate body heat and blood sugars.

So it follows that even mild dehydration can - under some circumstances - be a killer.
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I don't do dumb & helpless.

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#189126 - 11/24/09 09:07 PM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: Tyber]
MostlyHarmless Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 982
Loc: Norway
There's probably more to be learned from this story than from all those horror stories about people totally lost without any clue what so ever...

What really is an eye opener for me is the obvious deteriation caused by dehydration - and how hard it can be to drink enough. I have a pretty liberal view on drinking untreated water (obviously not recommended everywhere), but still it can be a challenge to drink enough.

Dehydration may actually have been an important factor when getting lost. Neither body nor mind is at its best when you're dehydrated, and it takes a fresh mind (or some mind shattering evidence) to realize you're not where you think you are.

That this can happen so quickly to an experienced outdoors person is an important lesson for me.

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#189138 - 11/25/09 12:11 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: MostlyHarmless]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
OK - an interesting story. Glad it wound up with a happy ending! Chalk up another "Epic in the wilderness" story.

He appeared to get lost after he crossed a fork in the trail, and didn't backtrack his way correctly from that point. These days I've become a lot more careful myself when I pass forks in trails or remote roads. I usually stop and put some markers (using stones or branches) to remind myself which direction I was coming from, and which fork I went down.

Still - credit to him. He didn't panic when he knew he was lost. He had plenty of food. And he could have boiled more water.

If it was me, when I reached the sign saying "Destination 18 miles" I probably would have gone for it. I also would have drunk untreated water from the streams. Especially if you take fast running water from the middle of the stream (a mountain stream), your chances of getting sick are pretty small. Dehydration is a bigger enemy than giardia. With adequate water and plenty of food, he could have made it out in one hard day if he lightened his gear.

But given that he stayed around and built signal fires - it was a pretty good attempt. Also good was his deciding to stay at the cabin - wandering off could have got him in serious trouble at that point. BTW - I agree with the comment about the usefulness of signal mirrors. They are worth their weight in gold. And frankly - they only weigh a few ounces.

I guess what really saved his bacon was the fact that he notified friends about his schedule, and he left a note at his car. That got S&R started - and that's what saved him.

Good stuff.
There's nothing like learning lessons the hard way!

Pete


Edited by Pete (11/25/09 12:12 AM)

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#189142 - 11/25/09 12:48 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: Pete]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
I am perplexed by his failure to boil enough water. The article says he had several canisters of fuel, which implies some sort of gas (isobutane or similar) stove. These are very efficient at heating water - a one liter pot will reach boiling in about four minutes, a time as good or better than many purifiers. With more than one canister, he had plenty of fuel. The area in which he is hiking is a luxuriant pine/fir forest with abundant fuel, if he had to fall back upon a campfire. If I were to go hiking there tomorrow, I would not bother with a filter

Possibly he felt he had to boil his water for an extended time - which is a fallacy.

The article does not mention which map of the Gila he was carrying. Some are better than others, but any of several topo maps would clearly indicate that the trail down the West Fork back to his car was gently descending, well watered, and easy to follow - very comparable to the Middle Fork trail he had just ascended. Covering the 18 miles would be a modest feat for an adequately motivated hiker. But by that time he was caught up in the throes of dehydration.
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Geezer in Chief

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#189145 - 11/25/09 01:27 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: hikermor]
JohnN Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 966
Loc: Seattle, WA
Might be he didn't have enough storage capability. Boil water, let it cool, fill one or two water bottles, go until you are out of water, repeat.

-john

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#189146 - 11/25/09 01:34 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: hikermor]
Homer_Simpson Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/08/07
Posts: 28
It's easy to second guess what we might do or what he should have done, but it's good to read about it either way, one happy ending but the more knowledge you have will help you out if ever in this situation.

I'm our local Boy Scout Scoutmaster, I stress to my boys when planning a trip, or anytime they are going into the woods to plan out the trip, make sure they have enough gear to get them through the trip and enough food to last an extra day or two. And if lost to stay put (hug a tree) but I always stress that someone back home knows where they are going and when they plan to be home, this is one of the most important things to do when planning a trip, at least then you know if you don't make the call when scheduled people will be looking for you, sit down, make a meal have a drink and wait, sooner or later you will be found.



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#189147 - 11/25/09 01:42 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: JohnN]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
John's suggestion is a good one. It's also possible that through inexperience or the onset of early hypothermia that he just wasn't thinking clearly ... and may not have realized he wasn't drinking enough water. And possibly he did not figure in the effects of high altitude - which tends to increase water loss from the body.

It's funny how the human mind reacts, isn't it? He was quite concerned about being lost - and he was very worried about an approaching storm. But he did not identify dehydration as a risk to his life.

Some indicators of dehydration risk:

1. Your urine is turning strongly yellow or brown
2. When you hold the back of your hand close to your mouth,
your breath feels dry and hot.
3. You pause to remember the last time you took a drink of
water - and realize it was several hours ago.

Pete


Edited by Pete (11/25/09 01:43 AM)

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#189149 - 11/25/09 01:54 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: Homer_Simpson]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
Homer:

It seems like whenever someone takes the responsibility of team leader - that keeping the team properly hydrated is a very difficult task. I'm not getting down on you at all. It happens to me frequently - and I primarily deal with adults. I find that I can tell people until I am blue in the face that they need to drink a lot of water - and it goes right in one ear and out the other.

Most people who come from an urban background just don't appreciate the importance of drinking enough water in the wilderness. The most common mistake is that people wait until they "feel thirsy" - by which time it's often too late and mild dehydration is already setting in. If I'm paying attention (hopefully!), I literally stop the action and make the affected person sit down and drink a lot of water. Right there, on the spot, in front of my eyes.

I have seen people get quick sick in the wilderness because of prolonged dehydration over a few days. The body's immune systems will get run down and people tend to fall apart after that. And this is not even addressing the more serious concerns of heat stroke and/or loss of sodium/potassium balance.

Anyway - good luck with the Scout troop!! The best way to avoid a lot of problems is to build up the wilderness experience gradually.

Pete


Edited by Pete (11/25/09 01:58 AM)

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#189150 - 11/25/09 02:16 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: hikermor]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
The article shows an MSR Reactor Stove so should be able to boil about 20 litres on a single 250gm cartridge.

Quote:
It was time consuming to boil water each time he needed to drink.


An MSR Reactor Stove will boil a litre of water in under 4 minutes.

On the whole emphasis of the equipment failures in the article were actually pretty minor. Being in a pine forest he could have made a temporary fix to the sole of his boots using tree resin and charcoal ash. The water filter failure again was a minor issue, boiling water needs only a metal pot and a fire even after his gas cartridges ran out. He had access to both.

He doesn't even appear to be actually lost, the White Creek cabin's location would most likely have been marked on the map of the area.

He set up his tent outside and laid out fence posts as a signal beside the cabin, but apparently didn't have the energy to break inside or build a signal fire. Much of this story really doesn't make any sense.

Quote:
He could also see that the weather was starting to change. Clouds were coming in. The wind was picking up. He didn't know what that meant, not being familiar with the climate and territory here, but he knew it was getting colder, he was tired and dehydrated, and needed to get out of the elements.


This quote is particularly lame, then later in the day;

Quote:
He burned some extra socks and clothes. He thought, why carry all this equipment when what I really need is water.


Socks weigh virtually nothing and a change of dry socks can make the difference between a comfy or painful walk home. Then of course the socks can be improvised as mittens, scarve and water carrier (when used in conjunction with a Condom) etc.

Perhaps this chap was just too reliant on his gear, didn't know how to improvise and then panicked or became despondent when his imagined critical survival gear actually failed or didn't work how he imagined it would work.

Some excellent advice from Ray Mears again about not getting even more lost and how to rehydrate the number 1 survival tool is shown here at the end of the this Youtube clip of his new TV show series 'Northern Wilderness'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpWJPobfWd8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moyCJ7Z-EaY











Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (11/25/09 02:26 AM)

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#189152 - 11/25/09 02:23 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: Pete]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2208
Loc: Beer&Cheese country
Originally Posted By: Pete

Some indicators of dehydration risk:

1. Your urine is turning strongly yellow or brown
2. When you hold the back of your hand close to your mouth,
your breath feels dry and hot.
3. You pause to remember the last time you took a drink of
water - and realize it was several hours ago.

Pete

There's one that my bosses keep stressing at work, that I always forget:

lack of armpit sweat.

Gross, but think about it. It's almost always moist.

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#189153 - 11/25/09 02:26 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
JohnN Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 966
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

The article shows an MSR Reactor Stove so should be able to boil about 20 litres on a single 250gm cartridge.

Quote:
It was time consuming to boil water each time he needed to drink.


An MSR Reactor Stove will boil a litre of water in under 4 minutes.


There are other ways it can be time consuming.

1) boil water
2) let water cool
3) fill water bottles
4) go until you run out of water
5) start over

I didn't read the article, but what if you only have 1 water bottle? Or, even if he has two, what if he has a pot only capable of 1L at a time? Or worse, a cup?

If you are expecting to use a pump filter with plentiful water sources, you could see how they you might not bring many water bottles. Also, if you have water covered with the filter, you could see how you might only have a small container for cooking, or a cup for hot water if you are going light.

Not saying what the situation was, just that there can be a lot of complicating situations.

As for the burning of the socks, seems like he was probably impaired by dehydration at that point.

-john


Edited by JohnN (11/25/09 02:29 AM)

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#189156 - 11/25/09 02:43 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: JohnN]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078

Quote:
I didn't read the article, but what if you only have 1 water bottle?


Lets assume one 1 litre metal water bottle and a 1-2 litre platypus plastic bottle and 1 MSR reactor stove.

Boil 1.5 litres of water (takes 6 minutes). Fill the water bottle with hot water and put it in the stream. Make a cup of tea with the rest. Drink the tea while the water cools down in the stream. (10 minutes to cool down). Transfer to the platypus.

Boil up another 1.5 litres of water. Refill the metal water bottle and consume another .5 litres of tea. Put the metal water bottle back in the stream (another 10 minutes)

Boil up another 1.5 litres of water in the Reactor stove. Lock the lid on the stove pot and cool the pot in the stream.


1 litre of water has been consumed as tea, with the rest of breakfast, lunch or dinner and 3.5 litres of water have been sterilized (enough for the rest of the 24 hrs period) in less than 30-40 minutes.

A couple of condoms and a pair of socks could also improvise another 1-2 litres of water needs. (add another 20 minutes to the total)

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#189157 - 11/25/09 02:51 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
JohnN Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 966
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

Quote:
I didn't read the article, but what if you only have 1 water bottle?


Lets assume one 1 litre metal water bottle and a 1-2 litre platypus plastic bottle and 1 MSR reactor stove.


I think 1 bottle != 1 bottle + 1-2 liter bottle.

:-P

And besides, once you are not thinking clearly, you likely aren't going to figure the optimal way to do something.

*shrug*

-john


Edited by JohnN (11/25/09 02:53 AM)

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#189158 - 11/25/09 03:02 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: JohnN]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
Quote:
And besides, once you are not thinking clearly, you likely aren't going to figure the optimal way to do something.


True, but once you have access to a water source and a means of sterilization, then dehydration is very easily overcome and the medical issue can be overcome within a couple of hours especially if Oral Rehydration Solution powders are available from the medical kit. If this is unavailable then hot sweet tea and a biscuit will help do the trick.




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#189159 - 11/25/09 03:05 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: JohnN]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
The quantity of storage in your canteens is not a factor in the area in which he was hiking. He was basically hiking along the Middle fork and (potentially) the West Fork which are permanent, crystal clear trout streams. Even the trail from the Middle Fork to White River RS is well watered. You can stop every five minutes to get a drink or brew up tea, which is what makes this area of the Gila Wilderness so attractive.

Considering he flew from Houston (sea level), altitude may well have been a factor, as Pete pointed out.
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Geezer in Chief

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#189162 - 11/25/09 04:03 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: hikermor]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
hikermor: I'm still with you. I can think of times in my life when I had NO water, I was seriously dehydrated, and I would have killed just to be anywhere near a crystal clear running stream. Hard to believe he did not drink that water. Ohhhhh well.

On a different note ... something else I would have done. I would have wasted no time in breaking into the cabin. The story records that he had already suffered from exposure from strong winds, and that later he was worried about an approaching storm. Good shelter is just too important to mess around with. Getting into that cabin would have been a top priority for me once I discovered it. After that ... you can get a fire going, warm up, and things are gonna' seem a whole lot better.

Pete


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#189167 - 11/25/09 05:00 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: Pete]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Breaking into a Gov't structure under survival circumstances would be overlooked. I can guarantee that White River Cabin is a fine place to spend the night, and there is wonderful spring water piped right to the cabin, or at least there was thirty years ago...

Even if you could not, or would not, work your way in, the cabin provides significant shelter for your tent from a storm.

All's well that ends well. He made enough correct decisions to survive.
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

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#189184 - 11/25/09 02:39 PM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: Pete]
Homer_Simpson Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/08/07
Posts: 28
Water is the most important thing when outdoors, and I've found myself not drinking enough, if you have a water source you should stick close to it, but as others have posted it's funny how the mind works, it just over this next hill and I'll be out of here, this is the type of thinking that will end up causing you serious problems.

When I have the boys out on trips we make regular water stops, they are pretty good at calling a water break long before I would think I'm ready for it, when you get them use to this type of hiking you hope that thought becomes second nature to them

depending on weather condtions I put thing into this order

shelter (I live in a cold region)
water
food

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#189185 - 11/25/09 02:58 PM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: Homer_Simpson]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
Homer ... sounds like you're doing a great job.

And back to the main thread:
Well, as hikermore said - all's well that ends well. That's true so many times in the wilderness.

The search and rescue guys did a really good job on this response. And the lost hiker did enough things right to make it back home.

I learned something from this story.

ALWAYS memorize the complete weather forecast - for the time period during your planned trip AND ALSO for the week after you plan to return.

How many times do we depart for a trip over a long weekend and say to ourselves "Well ... the weather's good for the weekend. So I'm going on this trip. By the middle of the following week a storm's coming in - but I'll be long gone by that happens."

So we tend to just memorize the weather that is appropriate for our main plan - but without getting the exact details of the extended forecast. But the moral is - if things go wrong then knowing exactly what that extended forecast is can significantly help our decision making.

Pete


Edited by Pete (11/25/09 03:00 PM)

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#189188 - 11/25/09 03:29 PM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: Pete]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2208
Loc: Beer&Cheese country
Don't forget guys, he was hiking at 8300 feet. Water doesn't boil in 6 minutes that high up (point 1), if he only had 1 cannister for his MSR he might have been trying to conserve or been out (point 2), and do cannister stoves even work well that high up (point 3)? Every time I camp I have a MSR white gas type.

Yeah, he made mistakes. But he made a plan, stuck with it, modified it when needed, and survived. Sure, he made some probably less-than-ideal decisions, but he did the big things right:
water
shelter
signal
fire
food


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#189191 - 11/25/09 04:17 PM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: MDinana]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
Quote:
Don't forget guys, he was hiking at 8300 feet. Water doesn't boil in 6 minutes that high up (point 1), if he only had 1 cannister for his MSR he might have been trying to conserve or been out (point 2), and do cannister stoves even work well that high up (point 3)? Every time I camp I have a MSR white gas type.


The boiling point temperature for water gets lower to reach a rolling boil at altitude so actually uses less heat energy to bring to the boil. A 30 second rolling boil at altitude isn't going to get the water any hotter unless a pressure cooker was used to raise the water temperature (@ 8,500ft the boiling temperature of water is around 91C). Water actually boils more quickly at altitude than at sea level but with a lower temperature. Killing the nasties in the water is a function of the time and the temperature. So if 1.5 litres of water can be brought to the boil in 6 minutes the same amount of water can be brought to the boil in around 5 min 30 sec. So perhaps in this story the unfortunate hiker may have concluded that the water needed to be boiled for a much, much longer time, but all that is required is a rolling boil in addition to only the extra time you have saved due to bring the water to the boil due to the altitude.

Altitude is not really a problem for gas cartridge stoves, in fact the lower air pressure allows for better cold temperature usage. Gas cartridge stoves are effected by cold sub zero temperatures due to the boiling or vaporisation temperature of the butane content. But with using isobutane/propane cartridges and a chemical heater/neoprene insulation bag, operating temperatures down to -20C can be achieved.

Stoves such as Primus Himalaya Omnifuel can use gas cartridges again down to very cold sub zero temperatures by inverting the gas cartridge and using the butane/propane as a liquid fuel source.

I don't think in this case there was any issue in using the MSR Reactor stove (great stove BTW) even at altitude. No doubt the it would have otherwise been flagged up as yet another equipment failure.

Quote:
Yeah, he made mistakes. But he made a plan, stuck with it, modified it when needed, and survived. Sure, he made some probably less-than-ideal decisions, but he did the big things right:
water
shelter
signal
fire
food


I think from the article that this hiker has access to water; to shelter; to fire; to food and had a good idea that someone was looking for him and that he was 18 miles from safety. I don't think any inclement weather played a part in this story.

What exactly was he surviving against? Was it his own inability to use a map and compass and the mental bridge of realizing he had a long walk home?

Could it have been that due to the embarrassment that if he wasn't somehow a victim of the wilderness then walking out of his predicament whilst SAR are carrying out the full scale search would have made himself look a little silly in front of the SAR professionals, his friends, family and work colleagues? Sometimes telling folks when your meant to be back from the wilderness trek can backfire.



Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (11/25/09 05:31 PM)

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#189195 - 11/25/09 04:52 PM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
Yes, he did a lot of things right; he made it easy on SAR and spent his last night in a nice warm cabin. That said, he blew basic navigation; how many emergencies just like this one start by an "experienced hiker" getting lost? Staying found is very close to the top of what an "experienced hiker" should be experienced at doing.
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Okay, what’s your point??

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#189196 - 11/25/09 04:59 PM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: MostlyHarmless]
Famdoc Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/09
Posts: 155
Loc: PA
So what happens when SAR or other hikers happen along the left-behind SOS, etc., signs? What are they to think?

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#189208 - 11/25/09 06:23 PM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2208
Loc: Beer&Cheese country
Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor
[quote]Water actually boils more quickly at altitude than at sea level but with a lower temperature. Killing the nasties in the water is a function of the time and the temperature. So if 1.5 litres of water can be brought to the boil in 6 minutes the same amount of water can be brought to the boil in around 5 min 30 sec. .


You're absolutely right in sentence one, but seem to be misstating the concept at hand.

According to your statement, killing is a function of time and temp. Well, since water boils at a lower temp at altitude, then by default you have to boil LONGER to kill the bugs. So, yeah, you use more fuel. Go look at any cookbook, the recipes are all adjusted with a longer cooking time at altitude. Though I found articles that say boiling doesn't change much http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/canister_stove_faq.html


I'm not saying he did everything right. In fact, he should have turned around back to that fallen sign and cross-trail, or he should have spent the first night getting things set up for a 18 mile walk, fully topped off with water and food, on the following moring. At least, that's how I would have played it.

But he didn't. Still, he's now survived this situation, partially through equipment, and partially through luck. So in some ways, he's more of an "expert" at survival than most of us arm-chair quarterbacks. Therefore, he did something right. Just like DR said in post 1.

Edit: I just reread the article, and we don't know what type of stove he had. That being said, i stand by my original statement.


Edited by MDinana (11/25/09 06:33 PM)

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#189214 - 11/25/09 07:32 PM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: MDinana]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
With respect to boiling times at altitude, hee's a quote from [/u]Medicine for Mountaineering[u], 4th edition, p. 70., by James Wilkerson, MD

"Heat is reliable; simply bringing water to a boil provides adequate disinfection. Even though water boils at a lower temperature at higher altitudes, the boiling temperature and the time required to reach that temperature are adequate to kill miccroorganisms, including parasitic cysts, bacteria, and viruses."

He then goes on to point that milk is pasteurized at 160 F, which is also the boiling point for water at 29,000 feet ASL.

Most of the wild water I have consumed over the years has been boiled, and it has worked for me. I have never contracted any illness from water, at least that I was able to notice.
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#189215 - 11/25/09 07:35 PM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: MDinana]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
I've just reread the article and the stove appears to be a jetboil and not an MSR Reactor stove. The Jetboil has a slightly smaller water boiling capacity. blush



Photo courtesy of Ross Mason.

So his capacity to boil water would have taken slightly longer but still would have been able to boil the water with the about the same time and efficiency as the Reactor Stove.

I don't think access to a clean or sterilized water resource was the issue though as others have stated who know the area.

Again after rereading the article there does seem to lots of excuses such as minor equipment failures etc for not being able to walk out rather than taking the option of sitting down and staying put and expecting SAR to come and get him in a rescue.

Staying put or self extraction can be a tough decision, many folks have died just staying put due to one reason or another, others have survived because they have been proactive. I think it would be fair to say that this guy survived simply because there really wasn't anything that was going to kill him such as really poor weather i.e hyperthermia or hypothermia, dehydration, predatory wild animals, starvation or ill health etc. This hiker, it seems, was initially almost lost due to a navigation error who then pressed on to make his almost lost situation into a completely lost scenario, found his bearings again but then it seems decided to become the 'wilderness survivor' because he knew his trekking time was up and probably knew that a SAR operation had swung into action.

Either way, I suspect he would have eventually made it out, SAR operation or not as 18 miles back to your hire car in reasonable weather is not exactly Scott of the Antarctic territory.







Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (11/25/09 07:40 PM)

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#189218 - 11/25/09 07:49 PM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
tomfaranda Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/14/08
Posts: 301
Loc: Croton on Hudson, NY
It's definitely a jotboil but using an MSR gas cartridge.

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#189237 - 11/26/09 04:12 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: tomfaranda]
comms Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/23/08
Posts: 1502
Loc: Mesa, AZ
Hydration is key regardless of altitude. Drink often. Period.
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#189241 - 11/26/09 05:00 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: tomfaranda]
UpstateTom Offline
Member

Registered: 10/05/09
Posts: 165
Loc: Rens. County, NY

He had planned his trip on a tight schedule. His water filter failed. He had a backup water supply plan. This much was stated.

My 2 cent theory: He was using water faster than he was used to, and his boiling water plan was slower than he was used to. With the thought of missing his scheduled return time, his flight, etc., he was consciously pushing himself to keep moving at the expense of his water intake. That started a downward spiral that was caught because he did other things right.

I'm about the same age as this guy, and also use a water filter as my primary supply. My backup is chlorine tablets first, and then just drink the water, next. (I've read stories of people in the Grand Canyon area dying of dehydration by a river. That won't be me.)

This story did strike a chord with me, but not specifically for the water reason. It's that my daily work leads me to push forward, to make an extra effort, and that could translate into something dangerous, as it did for this fellow, if I did the same thing in an environment more hostile than an office. Sure, I carry more gear, but that won't help me if my head isn't screwed on right. Ok, that's not the point...the point is I don't want to get in the spot where I *need* help.

So at the risk of rambling way off topic, this is causing me to re-evaluate my own normal plans, and add two things: 1) An early 'checkpoint' on any trip, to evaluate how I'm doing and decide to either continue or return. If I'm behind schedule, I return, pre-decided. 2) Padding an extra day or two on the trip, so that if things go more slowly than expected after the checkpoint, I can continue on at a slower, steady speed, or rest for a day, without setting off alarms. This also means that the standard supplies get bumped up 1-2 days, so I don't have to worry about that, either.

A final thought - Not to just throw out a plug for ham radio, but if he had a ham radio with him, he likely would have been able to get a message to his friends and the trail registration people that he was just behind schedule, that might have taken the pressure off and made things work better for him. Certainly would've made him easier to find.




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#189249 - 11/26/09 05:06 PM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: UpstateTom]
KG2V Offline

Veteran

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 1371
Loc: Queens, New York City
I can't tell you how many times I've had water to drink that wasn't boiled/filtered - true, 90% of the time, it was right out of a spring, but still

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