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#189208 - 11/25/09 06:23 PM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2208
Loc: Beer&Cheese country
Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor
[quote]Water actually boils more quickly at altitude than at sea level but with a lower temperature. Killing the nasties in the water is a function of the time and the temperature. So if 1.5 litres of water can be brought to the boil in 6 minutes the same amount of water can be brought to the boil in around 5 min 30 sec. .


You're absolutely right in sentence one, but seem to be misstating the concept at hand.

According to your statement, killing is a function of time and temp. Well, since water boils at a lower temp at altitude, then by default you have to boil LONGER to kill the bugs. So, yeah, you use more fuel. Go look at any cookbook, the recipes are all adjusted with a longer cooking time at altitude. Though I found articles that say boiling doesn't change much http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/canister_stove_faq.html


I'm not saying he did everything right. In fact, he should have turned around back to that fallen sign and cross-trail, or he should have spent the first night getting things set up for a 18 mile walk, fully topped off with water and food, on the following moring. At least, that's how I would have played it.

But he didn't. Still, he's now survived this situation, partially through equipment, and partially through luck. So in some ways, he's more of an "expert" at survival than most of us arm-chair quarterbacks. Therefore, he did something right. Just like DR said in post 1.

Edit: I just reread the article, and we don't know what type of stove he had. That being said, i stand by my original statement.


Edited by MDinana (11/25/09 06:33 PM)

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#189214 - 11/25/09 07:32 PM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: MDinana]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
With respect to boiling times at altitude, hee's a quote from [/u]Medicine for Mountaineering[u], 4th edition, p. 70., by James Wilkerson, MD

"Heat is reliable; simply bringing water to a boil provides adequate disinfection. Even though water boils at a lower temperature at higher altitudes, the boiling temperature and the time required to reach that temperature are adequate to kill miccroorganisms, including parasitic cysts, bacteria, and viruses."

He then goes on to point that milk is pasteurized at 160 F, which is also the boiling point for water at 29,000 feet ASL.

Most of the wild water I have consumed over the years has been boiled, and it has worked for me. I have never contracted any illness from water, at least that I was able to notice.
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#189215 - 11/25/09 07:35 PM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: MDinana]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
I've just reread the article and the stove appears to be a jetboil and not an MSR Reactor stove. The Jetboil has a slightly smaller water boiling capacity. blush



Photo courtesy of Ross Mason.

So his capacity to boil water would have taken slightly longer but still would have been able to boil the water with the about the same time and efficiency as the Reactor Stove.

I don't think access to a clean or sterilized water resource was the issue though as others have stated who know the area.

Again after rereading the article there does seem to lots of excuses such as minor equipment failures etc for not being able to walk out rather than taking the option of sitting down and staying put and expecting SAR to come and get him in a rescue.

Staying put or self extraction can be a tough decision, many folks have died just staying put due to one reason or another, others have survived because they have been proactive. I think it would be fair to say that this guy survived simply because there really wasn't anything that was going to kill him such as really poor weather i.e hyperthermia or hypothermia, dehydration, predatory wild animals, starvation or ill health etc. This hiker, it seems, was initially almost lost due to a navigation error who then pressed on to make his almost lost situation into a completely lost scenario, found his bearings again but then it seems decided to become the 'wilderness survivor' because he knew his trekking time was up and probably knew that a SAR operation had swung into action.

Either way, I suspect he would have eventually made it out, SAR operation or not as 18 miles back to your hire car in reasonable weather is not exactly Scott of the Antarctic territory.







Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (11/25/09 07:40 PM)

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#189218 - 11/25/09 07:49 PM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
tomfaranda Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/14/08
Posts: 301
Loc: Croton on Hudson, NY
It's definitely a jotboil but using an MSR gas cartridge.

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#189237 - 11/26/09 04:12 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: tomfaranda]
comms Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/23/08
Posts: 1502
Loc: Mesa, AZ
Hydration is key regardless of altitude. Drink often. Period.
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#189241 - 11/26/09 05:00 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: tomfaranda]
UpstateTom Offline
Member

Registered: 10/05/09
Posts: 165
Loc: Rens. County, NY

He had planned his trip on a tight schedule. His water filter failed. He had a backup water supply plan. This much was stated.

My 2 cent theory: He was using water faster than he was used to, and his boiling water plan was slower than he was used to. With the thought of missing his scheduled return time, his flight, etc., he was consciously pushing himself to keep moving at the expense of his water intake. That started a downward spiral that was caught because he did other things right.

I'm about the same age as this guy, and also use a water filter as my primary supply. My backup is chlorine tablets first, and then just drink the water, next. (I've read stories of people in the Grand Canyon area dying of dehydration by a river. That won't be me.)

This story did strike a chord with me, but not specifically for the water reason. It's that my daily work leads me to push forward, to make an extra effort, and that could translate into something dangerous, as it did for this fellow, if I did the same thing in an environment more hostile than an office. Sure, I carry more gear, but that won't help me if my head isn't screwed on right. Ok, that's not the point...the point is I don't want to get in the spot where I *need* help.

So at the risk of rambling way off topic, this is causing me to re-evaluate my own normal plans, and add two things: 1) An early 'checkpoint' on any trip, to evaluate how I'm doing and decide to either continue or return. If I'm behind schedule, I return, pre-decided. 2) Padding an extra day or two on the trip, so that if things go more slowly than expected after the checkpoint, I can continue on at a slower, steady speed, or rest for a day, without setting off alarms. This also means that the standard supplies get bumped up 1-2 days, so I don't have to worry about that, either.

A final thought - Not to just throw out a plug for ham radio, but if he had a ham radio with him, he likely would have been able to get a message to his friends and the trail registration people that he was just behind schedule, that might have taken the pressure off and made things work better for him. Certainly would've made him easier to find.




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#189249 - 11/26/09 05:06 PM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: UpstateTom]
KG2V Offline

Veteran

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 1371
Loc: Queens, New York City
I can't tell you how many times I've had water to drink that wasn't boiled/filtered - true, 90% of the time, it was right out of a spring, but still

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You are what you do when it counts - The Masso
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