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#189158 - 11/25/09 03:02 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: JohnN]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
Quote:
And besides, once you are not thinking clearly, you likely aren't going to figure the optimal way to do something.


True, but once you have access to a water source and a means of sterilization, then dehydration is very easily overcome and the medical issue can be overcome within a couple of hours especially if Oral Rehydration Solution powders are available from the medical kit. If this is unavailable then hot sweet tea and a biscuit will help do the trick.




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#189159 - 11/25/09 03:05 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: JohnN]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
The quantity of storage in your canteens is not a factor in the area in which he was hiking. He was basically hiking along the Middle fork and (potentially) the West Fork which are permanent, crystal clear trout streams. Even the trail from the Middle Fork to White River RS is well watered. You can stop every five minutes to get a drink or brew up tea, which is what makes this area of the Gila Wilderness so attractive.

Considering he flew from Houston (sea level), altitude may well have been a factor, as Pete pointed out.
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Geezer in Chief

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#189162 - 11/25/09 04:03 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: hikermor]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
hikermor: I'm still with you. I can think of times in my life when I had NO water, I was seriously dehydrated, and I would have killed just to be anywhere near a crystal clear running stream. Hard to believe he did not drink that water. Ohhhhh well.

On a different note ... something else I would have done. I would have wasted no time in breaking into the cabin. The story records that he had already suffered from exposure from strong winds, and that later he was worried about an approaching storm. Good shelter is just too important to mess around with. Getting into that cabin would have been a top priority for me once I discovered it. After that ... you can get a fire going, warm up, and things are gonna' seem a whole lot better.

Pete


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#189167 - 11/25/09 05:00 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: Pete]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Breaking into a Gov't structure under survival circumstances would be overlooked. I can guarantee that White River Cabin is a fine place to spend the night, and there is wonderful spring water piped right to the cabin, or at least there was thirty years ago...

Even if you could not, or would not, work your way in, the cabin provides significant shelter for your tent from a storm.

All's well that ends well. He made enough correct decisions to survive.
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#189184 - 11/25/09 02:39 PM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: Pete]
Homer_Simpson Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/08/07
Posts: 28
Water is the most important thing when outdoors, and I've found myself not drinking enough, if you have a water source you should stick close to it, but as others have posted it's funny how the mind works, it just over this next hill and I'll be out of here, this is the type of thinking that will end up causing you serious problems.

When I have the boys out on trips we make regular water stops, they are pretty good at calling a water break long before I would think I'm ready for it, when you get them use to this type of hiking you hope that thought becomes second nature to them

depending on weather condtions I put thing into this order

shelter (I live in a cold region)
water
food

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#189185 - 11/25/09 02:58 PM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: Homer_Simpson]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
Homer ... sounds like you're doing a great job.

And back to the main thread:
Well, as hikermore said - all's well that ends well. That's true so many times in the wilderness.

The search and rescue guys did a really good job on this response. And the lost hiker did enough things right to make it back home.

I learned something from this story.

ALWAYS memorize the complete weather forecast - for the time period during your planned trip AND ALSO for the week after you plan to return.

How many times do we depart for a trip over a long weekend and say to ourselves "Well ... the weather's good for the weekend. So I'm going on this trip. By the middle of the following week a storm's coming in - but I'll be long gone by that happens."

So we tend to just memorize the weather that is appropriate for our main plan - but without getting the exact details of the extended forecast. But the moral is - if things go wrong then knowing exactly what that extended forecast is can significantly help our decision making.

Pete


Edited by Pete (11/25/09 03:00 PM)

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#189188 - 11/25/09 03:29 PM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: Pete]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2208
Loc: Beer&Cheese country
Don't forget guys, he was hiking at 8300 feet. Water doesn't boil in 6 minutes that high up (point 1), if he only had 1 cannister for his MSR he might have been trying to conserve or been out (point 2), and do cannister stoves even work well that high up (point 3)? Every time I camp I have a MSR white gas type.

Yeah, he made mistakes. But he made a plan, stuck with it, modified it when needed, and survived. Sure, he made some probably less-than-ideal decisions, but he did the big things right:
water
shelter
signal
fire
food


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#189191 - 11/25/09 04:17 PM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: MDinana]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
Quote:
Don't forget guys, he was hiking at 8300 feet. Water doesn't boil in 6 minutes that high up (point 1), if he only had 1 cannister for his MSR he might have been trying to conserve or been out (point 2), and do cannister stoves even work well that high up (point 3)? Every time I camp I have a MSR white gas type.


The boiling point temperature for water gets lower to reach a rolling boil at altitude so actually uses less heat energy to bring to the boil. A 30 second rolling boil at altitude isn't going to get the water any hotter unless a pressure cooker was used to raise the water temperature (@ 8,500ft the boiling temperature of water is around 91C). Water actually boils more quickly at altitude than at sea level but with a lower temperature. Killing the nasties in the water is a function of the time and the temperature. So if 1.5 litres of water can be brought to the boil in 6 minutes the same amount of water can be brought to the boil in around 5 min 30 sec. So perhaps in this story the unfortunate hiker may have concluded that the water needed to be boiled for a much, much longer time, but all that is required is a rolling boil in addition to only the extra time you have saved due to bring the water to the boil due to the altitude.

Altitude is not really a problem for gas cartridge stoves, in fact the lower air pressure allows for better cold temperature usage. Gas cartridge stoves are effected by cold sub zero temperatures due to the boiling or vaporisation temperature of the butane content. But with using isobutane/propane cartridges and a chemical heater/neoprene insulation bag, operating temperatures down to -20C can be achieved.

Stoves such as Primus Himalaya Omnifuel can use gas cartridges again down to very cold sub zero temperatures by inverting the gas cartridge and using the butane/propane as a liquid fuel source.

I don't think in this case there was any issue in using the MSR Reactor stove (great stove BTW) even at altitude. No doubt the it would have otherwise been flagged up as yet another equipment failure.

Quote:
Yeah, he made mistakes. But he made a plan, stuck with it, modified it when needed, and survived. Sure, he made some probably less-than-ideal decisions, but he did the big things right:
water
shelter
signal
fire
food


I think from the article that this hiker has access to water; to shelter; to fire; to food and had a good idea that someone was looking for him and that he was 18 miles from safety. I don't think any inclement weather played a part in this story.

What exactly was he surviving against? Was it his own inability to use a map and compass and the mental bridge of realizing he had a long walk home?

Could it have been that due to the embarrassment that if he wasn't somehow a victim of the wilderness then walking out of his predicament whilst SAR are carrying out the full scale search would have made himself look a little silly in front of the SAR professionals, his friends, family and work colleagues? Sometimes telling folks when your meant to be back from the wilderness trek can backfire.



Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (11/25/09 05:31 PM)

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#189195 - 11/25/09 04:52 PM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
Yes, he did a lot of things right; he made it easy on SAR and spent his last night in a nice warm cabin. That said, he blew basic navigation; how many emergencies just like this one start by an "experienced hiker" getting lost? Staying found is very close to the top of what an "experienced hiker" should be experienced at doing.
_________________________
Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

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#189196 - 11/25/09 04:59 PM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: MostlyHarmless]
Famdoc Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/09
Posts: 155
Loc: PA
So what happens when SAR or other hikers happen along the left-behind SOS, etc., signs? What are they to think?

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