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#188917 - 11/22/09 08:56 PM Street fighting
Rodion Offline

Registered: 04/29/08
Posts: 285
Loc: Israel
An older guy came forward today during class. He's an ex spec ops or something and the instructor wanted him to imbue us all with the spirit of homicide. The demonstration went as follows:

First, he selected a burly high school student for his partner. They then traded blows and spin kicks and what-not at semi-full speed. That was to be the "textbook" approach.

Second, he wanted to show us the "street" approach. He roared and tackled the other guy, causing them both to roll into a wall, his shoulder to dislocate and us leaving practice more sheepish than ever.

Lessons learned:

1. Don't lose your XO, it won't help.

2. Wrestling is a vital skill for all styles and cannot be replaced.

3. MAMs will friggin' destroy you. Don't mess with 'em.
Whenever you rest, someone, somewhere is training to kick your ass.


#188919 - 11/22/09 09:20 PM Re: Street fighting [Re: Rodion]
Russ Offline

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5099

#188921 - 11/22/09 09:25 PM Re: Street fighting [Re: Rodion]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
3. MAMs will friggin' destroy you. Don't mess with 'em.

But did the older ex specs op guy eat the Banana afterwards? shocked

Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (11/22/09 09:46 PM)

#188922 - 11/22/09 10:03 PM Re: Street fighting [Re: Rodion]
LED Offline

Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 1474
I agree, those mixed martial arts guys are pretty amazing and I'd hate to be in a fight with one of them, or anyone for that matter. But most street fights aren't just you and some guy. Its you and 5 guys who want your wallet and they're usually armed with something. Training for instances like that is great, but avoiding them at all costs should be the priority #1. And it might be a good idea to have the business card of a good lawyer, cause if you "win" and the police come, you just might be arrested and charged. Again, I'm just going by the incidents I was unfortunate enough to witness here (from a distance thank goodness). By all means always defend yourself, but you'd be surprised how quickly a simple street fight becomes a lawsuit frenzy. Of course it all depends on where you live.

#188927 - 11/22/09 10:48 PM Re: Street fighting [Re: LED]
MostlyHarmless Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 982
Loc: Norway
I consider myself pretty lucky that I've never been in a fight, mugged or harassed. That doesn't prevent me from trying to learn from those who have, including some basic MA training (with pretty mediocre results, to be fair).

The one source that has made the most profound impression on me is this one:
Written by Mark "animal" MacYoung, a former gang member and gang leader who not only has been through some pretty rough times, but can write about it from a pretty intelligent perspective. Including the "lawyer frenzy" part.

Some highlights of what made the most impression on me:

- Most of what you considered justifiable self defense in the heat of the moment isn't (partly because your sense of reality is severly distorted when adrealine starts flowing. One consequence of that distortion is that you willingly or unknowingly contributes to the escalation of conflict). Result: Lawyer frenzy.

- There just isn't any way around the fact that your most important layer of defense is avoiding trouble. Situation avareness and the ability to stuff your ego and sweet talk yourself out of the situation is much more likely to save your bacon than any ninja trick. And if you try those options and they don't work, the fact that you truly did your best to avoid the confrontation will help you ward off the lawyer frenzy.

- Marc MacYoungs last resort self defense mantra: It Ends NOW! When you reach that point where there is no choice but to physically defend yourself, the threat should be stopped NOW (with appropriate level of force response). If the threat isn't stopped immediately you're a) doing it wrong, b) it's not self defence but fighting => lawyer frenzy.

Edited by MostlyHarmless (11/22/09 10:53 PM)

#188944 - 11/23/09 03:57 AM Re: Street fighting [Re: MostlyHarmless]
Pete Offline

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1361

Your martial arts instructor did a good thing - by bringing in an outside specialist to explain the intensity of real violence. Naturally, we all hope that we never have to protect ourselves in this way. But a real encounter with violent criminals - or people intent on cold blooded murder - is a highly difficult and dangerous encounter.

Several books ... all by authors with excellent qualifications ... have recently tried to highlight why "normal" martial arts training may not provide enough protection in a violent street encounter. The following books all try to get the message across in their own way:

Attack Proof by John Perkins et al.
Meditations On Violence by Sgt. Rory Miller
The Dirty Dozen by Larry Jordan

All of these books are written by people who not only have extensive training with martial arts, but also direct experience with cold-blooded violence through their jobs as policemen, corrections officers, and special forces soldiers. It is worth reading all three books - to get a better understanding of the true difficulties involved.

The essential point is that martial arts students are being misled if they think that their experience inside the training gym is enough to give them superiority in a violent fight. This applies across a wide variety of training styles, including MMA (mixed martial arts). Personally, I don't believe this is a failing of traditional martial arts disciplines. It's just that normal training within the USA (and the West) tends to water down the intensity of the training techniques. How many students would return to class - if they came home with a bloody nose, severe bruises, or a kick to the groin? In the old days, students did receive these kinds of injuries. But because we are now more "civilized" (and constrained by legal implications), this type of training cannot be provided today.

Train for the worst and hope it never comes. The old adage is still the best. The above books will help to get people started. There is NEVER a substitute for actual hands-on training though - a book can never replace a good instructor.

"The best way to get out of trouble - is never to get into it in the first place.".


P.S. And yes, quite commonly fights can wind up on the ground.

Edited by Pete (11/23/09 03:57 AM)

#188960 - 11/23/09 09:52 AM Re: Street fighting [Re: Rodion]
Desperado Offline

Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 1530
Loc: DFW, Texas
About all I can say is as follows:

1) It will NOT be what you expected
2) If you are in a fair fight, your tactics are unsound
3) Win, Lose, or Draw (unlikely), everyone is going to be sore at least if not truly injured.
4) Many jurisdictions have an offense called Mutual Combat (or words to that effect.) Plan on spending the night (or longer) in the can.

I have often said the best fighting technique involves one's feet. Place one foot in front of the other, and repeat. Just as fast as one can...
I do the things that I must, and really regret, are unfortunately necessary.


#188961 - 11/23/09 11:35 AM Re: Street fighting [Re: Desperado]
JBMat Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 745
Loc: NC
I don't get in fair fights, they are too easy to lose.

I don't go walking down dark alleys at midnight. I know where not to be and when. I have decent situational awareness, know what is around me, and while overtly my head is not on a swivel, I do keep tabs of my surroundings. I am not above beating feet should the need arise. I fight only as a last resort, but should the need to fight arise - I will use anything and everything at hand to ensure I walk away.

The best fight is no fight. The second best is the one you walk away from.

#188967 - 11/23/09 01:24 PM Re: Street fighting [Re: Russ]
Rodion Offline

Registered: 04/29/08
Posts: 285
Loc: Israel
Originally Posted By: Russ

Apologies. XO stands for the facial expression peopleoften make whilst losing the content of their bowels. MAM stands for Military Age Male.
Whenever you rest, someone, somewhere is training to kick your ass.


#188980 - 11/23/09 04:11 PM Re: Street fighting [Re: NightHiker]
comms Offline

Registered: 07/23/08
Posts: 1502
Loc: Mesa, AZ
There is no such thing as fighting dirty. There is only fighting.
Don't just survive. Thrive.

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