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#186596 - 10/27/09 03:56 AM Re: "Confiscated for the common good" [Re: Desperado]
UpstateTom Offline
Member

Registered: 10/05/09
Posts: 165
Loc: Rens. County, NY
Originally Posted By: Desperado

Uninvited "guests" tend to get their @$$ shot off around these parts.....


I love Texas. I'm reminded of a quote from a Bill Maudlin cartoon that I probably won't get right: "You guys would've lost the war without allies like Texas and Russia."

Sometimes governments have a false sense of entitlement, just like some people do. They believe things belong to them, rather than they belonging to the people.

As far as confiscation goes, I wouldn't worry about things or arms as much as I would property (land and buildings).

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#186634 - 10/27/09 03:26 PM Re: "Confiscated for the common good" [Re: Susan]
MartinFocazio Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 2148
Loc: Bucks County PA
Originally Posted By: Susan

First, even though a store like Costco could keep a list of what you buy, or a Power Behind the Store might see fit to do it, or some entity kept track of every bar code scanned by every store by everyone who purchased as much as a candy bar, I think it's hardly likely.


Ah, Susan...they DO KNOW!!

Let me tell you all a bit about the world of Catalina Marketing. Catalina Marketing.

"Checkout Coupon® targets consumers at the transaction (UPC) level, allowing brands to meet multiple objectives, including quantity trade-ups, competitive targeting, increased frequency and cross-category programming. This consumer driven-based purchasing gives brands access to consumers by delivering customized promotions to each household."

Translation: Every last thing you buy in the Supermarket, to the product level, is recorded by these folks. Everything. If you have a membership organization (Like Costco, BJ's, Sam's Club), they can - and do - maintain a database of your purchases. If you have a "shoppers discount card" at a supermarket, it's all tied back to YOU specifically as well.

Scary, right?

Anyway, I want to amplify on your statement,

Originally Posted By: Susan

Personally, I don't think it's very likely, but if I am overlooking something fairly obvious, I would like to hear about it.


Your instincts are spot-on - it's not likely. In fact, it's not at all likely.

Let us take a look at a few of the really big SHTF situation in the United States over the last few years. We've had a few.

Might as well start with the biggies (and no, 9/11 is not a "biggie" in my book, because it only affected a small geography and a limited number of people directly, including friends I lost in the towers).

I think I need to address the incredible fear of "redistribution of (name something you don't want to share)" that seems to permeate so many people's fear and loathing these days.

So, we go (of course) to New Orleans.
There were ample calls for help - people came from hundreds of miles away. Over 1.5 million people were evacuated, over 1,000 died. Not a single case of involuntary confiscation of personal property for redistribution to those undeserving poor folks. Things were "commandeered" by authorities - boats and transportation - but there are no reports I can find anywhere where the folks who had their stuff "commandeered" were unwilling to offer the logistical help.

OK, off we go to Florida - Hurricane Andrew.


Millions upon millions of people displaced, billions in damages. No water, no electric, entire communities obliterated. 0 cases of "gubmint" forces coming in to take food, water and ammo from civilians to give to the fools who had their home crash down on them because it was their own fault anyway.

Now on to 1993, and the Great US Flood of 1993. . "The 1993 midwest flood was one of the most significant and damaging natural disasters ever to hit the United States. Damages totaled $15 billion, 50 people died, hundreds of levees failed, and thousands of people were evacuated, some for months. "
Hundreds of thousands of people offered financial and material help. Local agencies, overwhelmed with supplies, set up distribution facilities to manage the flood of donations from all over the USA and the world. No food, water, ammo or medical supplies were forcibly taken by jack-booted thugs in the night to be given away for nothing at all to people who should have known better and had their own cache of supplies.

OK, snotty sarcasm aside. This is the USA. We have a lot of differences, and lately, those political differences have taken an ugly, racist tone, and I see and "hear" it everywhere. I don't like it.

The reality is that nobody from the government really cares about your stash of stuff, perhaps with the exception of large quantities of firearms or ammunition and even then, that's not a big deal for most places. As an emergency management coordinator for my local government, I have a lot of planning guidelines from FEMA on down to the county level. All of them suggest being aware of the equipment and supplies that might be available in my protection district simply by asking people if they can help before an emergency is declared. None of the planning guidelines even remotely suggest that these supplies be taken in the event of an emergency, for any reason, because the supplies flood in from unaffected areas.

And you know what? I've been through three major river floods here, I saw the Blackout of 2003, I've seen other major emergencies in person and in the media - and people are almost entirely good. Yes, there's some looting. Yes, it's hard to get help in the first 96 hours or so. But over and over and over, we see it. People help. They come, with food, with water, with strong backs, with a willingness to help. They come with clothing for the poor, food for the hungry, drink for the thirsty. They send money. They send blood. They send love and support. They are all kinds of people. They are religious, they are atheists, they are gay, they are old, they are young. They are us. And they want to help in an emergency.

I am not so cynical, I am not so fearful as to concern myself with unfounded fears about some mythical government behavior that, time and again, has never been seen in times of great emergencies in the USA. I think more about we than me. And I think we - as a people - are better than we tend to think. I think that we get these amplified chunks of badness shoved at us on 24 hour news channels and we constantly hear about the edge cases, and we just become so assaulted by the commercial media's need to keep us fixated on their screen that we can't avoid the bad news - it's all that we see and hear and eventually even if you don't really believe it yourself, you begin to think that maybe the world you know - where you have reliable friends, where you would gladly help someone in need, where you'd do what it takes to make a bad situation right - maybe THAT world is an edge case. It's not.






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#186636 - 10/27/09 03:32 PM Re: "Confiscated for the common good" [Re: MartinFocazio]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6489
Loc: southern Cal
Thank you, Martin. A very welcome and clarifying post which is a forceful antidote to the hysterical BS circulating on the internet.
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

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#186642 - 10/27/09 04:03 PM Re: "Confiscated for the common good" [Re: MartinFocazio]
Dagny Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1914
Loc: Washington, DC
Originally Posted By: martinfocazio
People help. They come, with food, with water, with strong backs, with a willingness to help. They come with clothing for the poor, food for the hungry, drink for the thirsty. They send money. They send blood. They send love and support. They are all kinds of people. They are religious, they are atheists, they are gay, they are old, they are young. They are us. And they want to help in an emergency.



Indeed. DC is never nicer than in an emergency -- be it weather-related or the trauma of 9/11.

It's very unlikely that there will ever be a nationwide emergency. The far, far more likely scenarios continue to be local or regional.

In those events, the rest of America will rush to help. And we should not discount the rest of the world's generosity. Most people are generous and caring and never featured on a news channel.

The IRS audits only a miniscule number of taxpayers annually because they can't audit everyone. I cannot imagine the government has the capacity (or the desire) to track what's in our pantries, closets, garages and basements.

My liberal-leaning neighborhood of government and private sector workers would riot if soldiers were going door-to-door to confiscate our food and supplies. I have friends who've worked for the ACLU and friends who are core-NRA and am not sure who among them would be more irate and the most spirited in resistance.

There may be isolated looting in an emergency, but it won't be the government doing it.



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#186646 - 10/27/09 04:17 PM Re: "Confiscated for the common good" [Re: MartinFocazio]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3077
Quote:
Ah, Susan...they DO KNOW!!


Welcome to the UK.

And your cell phone company can track you whilst you use your cell phone.

And your Cable TV company can track what TV programs you watch. Best to leave the box continuously on Foxnews when your out. laugh

And you can watch your neighbours homes on CCTV via your cable TV box.

And you credit card company has a record of all your Internet purchases.

And you are recorded when you leave the country and when you return.

And you are monitored continuously by CCTV in the name of fighting crime esp in central city centre areas.

And your wheelie trash bins are micro chipped to so that the local council can spy on you to see how much trash you throw out.

And your vehicle License plate number is recorded if you travel across central London.

And your local council can hire Private Dicks if they suspect that your application to get your kid into an oversubscribed school is regarded as being somewhat inaccurate.

And Mr Google records all your google search words.

And your Internet Service Provider can read what applications, what OS and the Computer name etc you have on your computer.

And your employer can secretly watch you using hidden CCTV.

And all your international telephone calls are all recorded by default.

And phone taps can be implemented without a court warrant.

And anyone with an Internet connection can read this.

The reality is that the state is more interested in folks that have no profile, no recorded purchases,no tracked locational data. i,e. folks who are deliberately attempting to keep a low profile off the all seeing eye net.

If you want to disappear of the net for a few weeks without anyone recording your purchases, your likes and dislikes, your movements or where you are within a few hundred metres then I would move to Cuba.










Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (10/27/09 04:24 PM)

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#186663 - 10/27/09 05:47 PM Re: "Confiscated for the common good" [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
MartinFocazio Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 2148
Loc: Bucks County PA
Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

Welcome to the UK.

And your cell phone company can track you whilst you use your cell phone.

(list snipped)



Nothing different in the USA, at all. The list is identical, and dare I say, it's a contest between the US and UK.

And it's all theater,security theater.

There's two lines of reasoning, two mental models at work here.

The first is that the fear of death is a motivator to not do something. We know that's wrong.

The second is that technology is capable of finding behavioral and transactional patterns that people will miss and as a result prevent Bad Things. It can't, it won't.


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#186673 - 10/27/09 08:05 PM Re: "Confiscated for the common good" [Re: NightHiker]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3077
Quote:
THERE'S A CHIP IN MY GARBAGE BIN???


There soon will be. Or perhaps no-one has told you yet that there is an electronic chip in your wheelie bin. wink

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/thi...lid-413566.html

This report is over 3 years old now.



Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (10/27/09 08:06 PM)

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#186678 - 10/27/09 08:36 PM Re: "Confiscated for the common good" [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Channeled Scablands
The sheriff and the forest service used to go around to the bars
and conscript folks when forest fires threatened.

They also would borrow heavy equipment from the local
dealers for fire fighting.

Nowadays they contract professionals.

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#186690 - 10/28/09 01:52 AM Re: "Confiscated for the common good" [Re: NightHiker]
Basecamp Offline
Member

Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 107
Loc: PNW
Can or Will the govt. take it:

Here is the current version (Executive Order 12656) of what is mis-quoted a lot on the internet (Executive Order 10998, which was signed by President Kennedy in 1962 (yr.?), right from the government's site. I did not read the whole thing, and yes, it needs authority for their excecution to be authorized by law [Sec. 102(b)]. See Part 2, Sec. 203 and 204, and all of Part 3:

http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/codification/executive-order/12656.html


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#186714 - 10/28/09 09:56 AM Re: "Confiscated for the common good" [Re: Basecamp]
TheSock Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 471
Loc: London England
Welcome to the UK:
You aren't recorded whenever you leave the UK. there aren't even custom or immigration stations on the UKs land border with Eire.
'Which?' magazine tried out the phones that supposedly give your location away. They couldn't even get the right town.
You aren't on CCTV all the time. You noticed any on country lanes?
My wheelie bin isn't micro chipped and I don't know anyone elses whose is.
International telephone calls are not recorded.
The state has no way of finding people not on the system even if they were interested in them.
If you want to dissapear off the net; simply don't log on. Spending time in a police state like Cuba is the surest way to guarantee you are monitored.

If you chose to use a mobile phone, credit card or go on google or cable. yes they'll keep a record. (you really want a credit card company that doesn't? 'we have charged you £10,000 that someone says you spent in their shop and we just believe them....')
so if it matters that much to you don't use them.

This 'new'surveillance is not new. your neighbour could always watch you by simply looking out the window. your boss could always watch you by standing behind you. And i'd be annoyed if my child had a place at the local good school stolen, becuase the council didn't investigate fraudulent entries.
If you are innocent all surveillance does is protect you. it catches bad people and provides an alibi for us: 'I fit the description of someone who robbed a bank in glasgow yesterday? take a look at my local shopping centre cctv officer; you'll see i was 400 miles away that day'.
relax Am Fear Liath Mor, the state simply isn't interested in us.
The Sock
_________________________
The world is in haste and nears its end – Wulfstan II Archbishop of York 1014.

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