Unless your going to depend on a charcoal grill or traditional campfire, both of which have major issues and weaknesses, you going to want to get yourself a portable stove of some sort.

There are a lot of makes, models, options and general ins and outs at every turn. Researching the available options isn't easy and, often on any single page, the opinions will often contradict themselves.

To help you along:
http://zenstoves.net/StoveChoices.htm

Look around the site and you will find a fairly detailed examination of stove types, fuels, plans for stoves you can make, many out of found materials, and links to related sites.

Personally I have a charcoal grill for recreational home use outdoors, a single burner propane model for inside use during emergencies at home, a Svea 123 white gas unit for hiking and camping, and a fan blown wood burner for after disaster and long term use. I figure seeing as that there are plenty of woods around there will always be wood.

When considering your stove choices remember that boiling water is a good way of treating water that only requires a pot and fire. It vastly increases you fuel use but can eliminate the need for chemicals and most filters. The possible need for unlimited fuel pointed me toward wood as a long term fuel source.

Comprehensive information, thank you.

I have an absurd number of car camping stoves -- three Colemans and two Bruntons.

JetBoil backpacking stove is in my permanent camp kit -- for boiling water for coffee.


My low-tech stoves are:

Lodge cast-iron grill: is my current fave at home for outside cooking.

Weber grill: (portable rectangular one) for camping.


No-tech stoves:

Thermette and Kelly Kettle -- these can be fueled by twigs or animal dung.


And I have a Coleman propane oven that I've never actually used.

The only stove I have packed in a kit is the Pocket Rocket in my truck GHB. Being in the truck it becomes available for use in my 96 hour kit.

I picked it because of the "pocket" aspect. It packs small, but it's also a great stove with excellent flame control.

Used propane and white gas for years. Now I only use alcohol and a coffee can hobo stove. Current setup is a Clickstand with Trangia burner and couldn't be happier. Sure, alcohol has limitations but the fuel is super cheap, available everywhere, and there's no moving parts to lose or break. I do love the Svea though. If I ever went back to white gas thats the one I'd get. Beautiful classic stove.

good link. I've referenced the zenstoves site many times. it has helpful info on all the different kinds of fuel, as well as the pros and cons of the various kinds of alcohol fuels.

I have Coleman propane canisters and a 2-burner portable stove for bugin or car camping.

but got some Trangia alcohol burners for BOBs, with a knockoff for the GHB. I like that the fuel (alcohol) is cheap, very easy to find and less likely to be sold out than the canisters in an emergency. I also find the alcohol burner lighter, easier, more flexible and more portable than a canister stove.

however I know that some people swear by things like the jetboil and the pocket rocket.

Are you concerned about carbon monoxide buildup?

I have many of the above and accumulated a stove for just about each fuel type because introducing people to an example of such stoves is something for our outdoor group.

The only "stove" I currently lust for is a Thermette.

It is a valid concern. But with reasonable precautions, limiting use time, never leaving it running unattended, and maintaining adequate ventilation it isn't really much of a risk.

In some ways propane, along with other pressurized gas units, have an advantage in this because they are quite easy to relight. So there is less temptation to leave them going to avoid having to follow an elaborate procedure to restart them once they cool.

It also helps that the local climate is fairly warm compared to the northern states, even in winter, so there is less resistance to opening a window a bit.

I have made it many years with only moderate brain damage. YMMV.

This is a great thread...

For camping and backpacking I have an old Optimus Explorer. It's a pressurized liquid fuel stove, and it'll burn just about anything - white gas, kerosene, even alcohol. Lots of heat, reliable, simmers well, but you'd be nuts to use it inside, IMO.

For away from home emergencies I have a foldup esbit stove. Think of it as little bricks of solid sterno, except a little hotter.

At home I have a coleman propane stove that fits on top of a 16oz canister. Bought it because it was inexpensive and clean burning. It works great, but too big for a backpack.

I've experimented with making little alcohol stoves, but don't have one I like yet. I like alcohol as a fuel because it burns cleanly, doesn't have the kerosene smell, and IMO isn't as dangerous as gasoline or white gas.

Do those that carry the Trangia's like them, or are they just "ok"? I'm waffling between getting one of those, or a butane/propane canister stove like the one shown above, to take with me for field emergency work where the Optimus stove would be too much of a pain.

Most people seem to really like their Trangias, myself included. Their cooksets are very well thought out and extremely wind resistant. However, I wanted to use my own kettle and pots so I started using the clickstand which was designed around the Trangia burner. Not as wind resistant as the trangia cookset but pretty close.

I've made three different beer can alcohol stoves so far. The penny stove is the best design by a good margin. I also made one which is basically a smaller version of the Trangia stove. Both are small, extremely light and at least as effective as a Coleman gas stove in terms of how long it takes to boil a pint of water. There are only two disadvantages, namely slightly less convenient operation and relative fragility. I ruined my first mini stove when I stepped on it accidentally at my campsite one day.

I have no actual hands-on experience with a Trangia stove yet but they seem well made and stirdy. If they work anywhere near as well as my improvised alcohol stoves I would pick one over a Coleman any day.

The only stove I currently lust for is the Primus Omnifuel Titanium

http://www.moontrail.com/primus-omnifuel-titanium.php

as you can see from this photo i'm a stove enthusiast..



at home and on camping trips i've tried out just about ever sort of stove that will burn something.



kerosene..which is nasty and greasy but burns hot and go's a long way..



too alcohol which burns sweet,is easy to get and use but does not burn as hot as..



white gas or Coleman fuel which is great in cold weather,lots of stoves are made that burn it and gallon cans are easy to find.




or you could get carts of canned Gaz of some sort which are very easy to light,burn and store but like in this photo loose power in cold weather..i had to spoon warm water into the stove base to get enough heat to get water to a rolling boil..
i have a wood burning Zip Stove but i'll stop here,you get the idea.it's not the stove as much as what kind of fuel you expect to have avalable,if any past what you are able to carry with you. %90 of the stoves made are just fine with a few "dogs" out there with bad pumps or flimsy parts but for the most part any one will work..a survival stove in my view is one that will go into a pack or some sort,large or small, and be forgot until it's pulled out and fired up to save your skin..a Gaz might be best here..camping--i would say a Coleman fuel stove of any kind that strikes your fancy.they make stoves for mountain climbers to family outings..the best place for details on stoves is at Classic Camp Stoves where you will find a wealth of information and photos of stoves in use from the highlands of Scotland to..well my Midwest backyard..

A few things to consider in a survival stove:

Coleman fuel, propane and fuel canisters disappear quickly from store shelves in and near disaster areas.

Consider the inherent safety of storage and long term viability of fuels that may be kept a car trunk, etc., for a long time.

My choice is alcohol.

The stoves are small, light, and very simple, with no moving parts, and can even be improvised on the spot with scavenged materials. Alcohol is less volatile than other liquid or pressurized fuels, and it is stable over the long term. Fuel is widely available at any hardware, paint, pharmacy, liqueur or auto parts store, in the form of rubbing alcohol, starter fluid/de-icer, high-proof booze, denatured alcohol, etc. It does offer a little less heat energy than other fuels, but I've found it entirely adequate for boiling water, and for making simple meals and hot beverages.

It also burns silently with minimal visible light, if stealth is important to you. Gas stoves, on the other hand, often roar like miniature jet engines.

Something that came up earlier in the thread that I think should be discussed more: carbon monoxide.

CO exposure is cumulative. Once it binds to the receptors in the red blood cells, it stays there until the cells die and are replaced normally -- up to 4 months. Even low level exposure can be lethal in only a few hours, and high-level in less than one.

Combustion products should to be vented DIRECTLY outside. Even being in the flow from the source to the outlet will allow CO to accumulate in your blood.

I think anyone considering a bug-in situation should plan on having the stove/whatever outside, somewhere that airflow can't carry the CO inside. A fireplace with the flue open might be safe, but I don't know enough about it to be sure, myself. A wood fire produces a much stronger convection flow than a camp stove would, and I would still be concerned about CO escaping into the room.

Edit: I recognize that most of the people posting here have experience and knowledge of this. I'm posting for the people who might be lurking, and are new to all of this.

lets talk about a real survival stove,not a sit at home and wait for the power to come back on Coleman or a hide out in the woods pop can stove but one that would be in a kit that is only opened as a last resort..you have only the fuel that is packed with it and you have to use it because for what ever reason you can't start--note i did not say have,but start a fire.wet,snow,whatever.having this will mean the difference between getting on the pick-up craft/vehicle tired,hungry and standing and not carried on hypothermic and semi-conscious.

Maybe it's because it was hard to follow the ultra long run-on sentence and odd punctuation in your post, but I'm unclear what you're actually looking to discuss.

You seemed to have eliminated most options, claiming the stove needs to be something people only use in a last resort. But most of what has already been posted are stoves people DO actually keep in their BOB and plan to use as an emergency/survival stove. Most people put it into use prior because it just makes sense to test it and get familiar with it. That doesn't make it any less a "survival stove".

You stated we have to use the fuel we have on us, but then claim we can't start the stove. This doesn't make sense to me since most of the stoves already mentioned don't have trouble starting up. I mean, as long as you have a match, lighter, striker, whatever you can start an alcohol stove.

and I couldn't follow any of that last bit about "start a fire.wet,snow,whatever."

True about the CO. Almost all stove have to be outside and even natural gas and butane are better outside.
During the ice storms in Quebec a few years ago people died because they set up generators inside their houses for power.
So it is not just stoves to be aware of the risk of poisoning from.

About alcohol for fuel;

Isopropyl alcohol (rubbing alcohol) tends to burn sooty and cooler than methanol or ethanol.
It is usually full of water too and unless you are going to skim it off after salting the solution you are better with methanol.

Methanol is by far the best alcohol for fuel.
You can buy clean pure methanol (wood alcohol) as fondue fuel, wood alcohol and it is in paint stores as a solvent for shellac.
You can find it as fuel line antifreeze too, but it is way to expensive that way.
It is a poison too so it must not be used for drinking.

Ethyl alcohol (grain alcohol)is the stuff that yeast makes when fed sugar. Wine, beer and whisky are all solutions of ethyl alcohol.
It is clear burning but it is usually diluted and is awfully expensive for fuel. You can buy it as Everclear which is used as booze, or as lab alcohol.
Very expensive either way.

I doubt if many of us have the skills to ferment a mash and distill our own alcohol, or the interest in doing so either.



I have a pair of backpacker white fuel (multi fuel with the 1/2 liter fuel bottles.
One is Svea and the other is MSR Dragonfly.
They are both the multi fuel versions.
They are also roarer head stoves, so yes they sound like jet planes, but they put out a hellacious amount of heat for the size of them.

I have also used can candles. Not nearly as much heat, but double as light and using beeswax means little or no worry about carbon monoxide.
This means they can be used to heat a tent or inside a car.

YT and others..sorry about the sorry state of my posting,if i was any good at this i would have a blog or something.when i said start a fire i was thinking of a open fire.you need the stove and it's fuel to get along.no BOB's,they are just camping gear by the door.i'm thinking of a overboard and washed ashore or get out of the wrecked whatever with the sealed kit that has been under the seat for years semi-forgotten.that kind of stove.
the questions will become apparent in a few weeks when i'm working out the Ditch Vest for next years canoe trips.

Canoedogs -- a remote boat mishap in Minnesota certainly would present special planning needs.

In my travels around Washington, D.C. and the mid-Atlanic, it's unlikely I'll ever be stranded more than 10 miles from a McDonald's.

Unless I'm on a camping trip or coming home from the supermarket, I won't have any groceries in the car to cook.

This discussion does renew my interest in getting the smallest Kelly Kettle, which uses twigs or dung for fuel. Would be worth leaving that in the car.

What alcohol stoves do peops recommend?

This thread is going to cost me. Am now researching alcohol stoves and duel-fuel. Here's the Trangia, which costs $35 at REI. Extremely enthusiastic customer reviews.

I would take a look at the Primus Eta Packlite

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhCyUgP1CdY

It has excellent efficiency, built in wind shield, is very fast and is reasonably lightweight and compact.

http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/news/article/mps/uan/5930

For more compactness I will mostly carry an Optimus Crux folding stove tucked into the base of an MSR Isopro 8oz standard cartridge which fits neatly into a Primus EtaPower 1 Litre Pot, with a little room left over for a Brunton Firestorm Lighter, Primus fuel tool and a brew kit.

You should check out the Honey Stove, esp the video demo

http://www.backpackinglight.co.uk/product397.asp

I have never been a fan of alcohols stoves, even the best I have seen, a commercial pressurized unit fed the best fuel, had a pretty poor energy output compared to white gas. They also seem get weaker and finickier as conditions get worse. Usually when you most need them. I have seen a nice home made unit, which in good conditions boiled a quart of water in about eight minutes struggle to heat a cup of water at 35F in a misting rain and relentless wind. When we were borderline hypothermic and really could have used something hot to drink.

A similar situation with my old Svea 123 running white gas had it roaring like a jet engine and boiling water as fast as we could drink it.

The best thing I can say about alcohol stoves is that it will run, at least nominally, on easily available stuff like rubbing alcohol and the alcohol stove is a step up from the Triox and Hexamine solid fuel units which seem entirely suitable for heating up a GI canteen cup of instant coffee. As long as it isn't raining or blowing too hard.



While consideration should be given to ventilation and safety there also has to be recognition that CO in small amounts is a normal product of most combustion and in small amounts it is fairly well tolerated. It doesn't pose a major risk as long as common sense precautions are taken. If it wasn't smokers would be keeling over right and left.

The single burner propane stove puts out less CO than the four burner propane or natural gas stoves you find installed in many homes. Home appliance which are not vented outside.

Gasoline and kerosene stoves are IMO far worse at producing CO than propane or alcohol. Combined with their tendency to sometimes flare up I generally refuse to use them inside. In fact the reason I got the propane stove was because it was much more suitable for interior use.

T_Y :

My understanding is that CANOEDOGS is considering a special situation based on a worse case corruption of his favorite outdoors activities. He is considering what might happen if he was canoeing a remote area and for some reason, like a sudden change in the weather, he was dumped in the cold water and barely makes it to a wet and windswept shore with only whatever he has in his life jacket/survival vest. It is something of a singular predicament limited to whitewater rafters, offshore kayakers, and wilderness paddlers. One which most people will never face. But it is an interesting thought experiment.

Just brainstorming here but I would start with something that would provide heat fast, something that would work even after dunking and in strong winds and water spray. Something compact and relatively light, so it would fit in a vest. I'm thinking something like a flare would be a good start. Remove and flip cap and strike and you have a very hot fire that wind and rain won't touch. Burn time of ten minutes. So climb into a plastic bag and squat over the fire. After seven or eight minutes your warmed up enough to function and seek better shelter.

Follow, once in better shelter, with something light and compact like one of the smaller multi-wick candles. They won't allow you to do much actual cooking but you can heat up coffee, tea and broths.

On the other hand as a spelunker, often wading and swimming through cold water and risking hypothermia, stuffing myself into a garbage bag and squatting over a small fire, often a candle or carbide headlamp, is standard warming procedure.

In fact the more I think about it a carbide headlamp might be a good choice for CANOEDOGS. The lamp is compact and light brass unit that can be left unfilled. Activation is a matter of dumping an ounce of calcium carbide into the bottom and spitting a little water into the top. Water drips on the carbide producing acetylene gas. This comes out of an orifice under pressure and a spark igniter lights it. Producing a small white-hot flame that resists wind and rain.

Biggest issue is that the compact carbide headlamps are antiques. I have one made in the early 70s, a brass Premier unit that still kicks but those haven't been made for some time. I have carried a small carbide supply in wet caves without any issues but carbide is harder to get than it used to be and inexperienced users can face issues.

A flare and a multi-wick candle in a can are much more familiar and might conceivably serve.

There again one of those tiny and light Trangia alcohol stoves and six ounces of methanol might be better if your willing to overlook and work around the down side of alcohol I mentioned earlier.

For a vest survival stove, I'd go with an emergency esbit stove, a couple of tabs and a bic lighter.

For my travel kit, that clickstand/trianga combo looks like the way to go. An alcohol stove is easy to de-fuel. Empty and dry it wouldn't have any smell or danger, and I could store a couple of pints of alcohol in the car without any problem. Time to do some shopping.

For long term bug-in use, my multi-fuel explorer makes sense for me, because I heat with oil, so I always have 100+ gallons of fuel oil on hand. For short term bug-in use I'll continue to use my propane stove, because it's convenient and I personally don't mind using it inside.

I also now have a new challenge - learn how to make a functional alcohol stove from a couple of pepsi cans and a pocket knife. It doesn't have to be pretty, just has to be able to heat water up, maybe melt snow. Being able to do this might come in handy sometime.

That certainly will be a challenge - trying to melt snow with an alcohol stove.

Actually alcohol stoves are just to heavy in comparison to even a mid weight butane/propane cartridge stove when used for more than a few days out in the wilds simply because they are just to inefficient due to the poor specific heat properties of alcohol fuel. Alcohol stoves are certainly lighter weight than a gas cartridge stove but the fuel is twice as heavy as a butane/propane fuel for the same heat available. Alcohol stoves are also very slow and become less efficient in colder temperatures. Personally if you intend to survive in anything less than 10-15C for more than a few days then I would just simply forget about alcohol stoves and get a basic propane/butane cartridge stove.

http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_Efficiency.htm

My alcohol stove is a Trangia burner, inside of which is a separate aluminum burner that weighs a fraction of an ounce. My stand is two bicycle spoke pieces bent into an inverted "U" and joined at one foot by a crimped .22case, with spoke caps on the free feet. I spread the free feet and get a "V" platform for my Snow Peak Ti solo cooker, which also fits it all inside. I have a foil wind screen.

I've used it at 12,000 feet at 35 degrees and breezy, with good results. It takes about twice as long as my Whisperlight to boil a pot of water, but is much quicker and easier to get going or put away.

I'd never use it for serious cold, water purifying or melting snow, but 500 ml of fuel lasts almost a week for my simple meal preps. My BOB has 22 oz of fuel.

That sounds impressive but the boiling points of water drops to around 89C @ 12,000 ft. It is much more difficult to raise the temperature of water at lower altitudes.

If we compare the Trangia mini setup and we want to boil the same amount of water compared to a 250ml or 8oz cartridge high efficiency butane/propane setup such as the Primus Eta Packlite system we would get the following;

An 8oz or 200 grams of propane/butane @ 100% efficiency will heat 26.5 ltres of water or 21 litres @ 80% (claimed by the manufacturer) to the boil.

The Total weight for the Primas Eta Packlite gas stove is 590gms (Eta Packlite) + 320 gms (fuel cannister + fuel) = 910 grams in total to boil 21 litres

The Trangia mini stove will require 306 grams of fuel @ 100% to boil 21 litres, typically the efficiency for the Trangia mini will be less than 50% (being generous) so the total fuel is 612 grams.

The Trangia weighs 320 grams and the trangia bottle weighs 112 grams giving a total 612 gms (fuel) + 112 gms (fuel bottle) + 330 gms (Stove and 0.9 litre pot and pan) = 1054 grams or 144 grams heavier (I have not included the wind shield weight)

The Trangia mini is also certainly limited to being a strictly one man affair compared to the Primus, which could conceivably be used for 2 man cooking. The Primus will also bring to boil a litre of water in less than 3 minutes. The Trangia will take at least 3-4 times longer.

The limitations and the greater weight for a alcohol stove become even more apparent when even more boiling capacity is required. The alcohol stove could simply not compete weight wise with the 500 ml 16oz propane/butane cartridge for the same heating capacity. The alcohol stove would end even heavier than a multifuel high performance expedition stove such as the Primus Omnifuel.

I know...and I probably wouldn't take an alcohol stove as my primary cooking stove for winter camping because of that.

Being able to make an alcohol stove that will melt snow would be handy for a car kit. For a large part of the year I can't keep liquid water in my car, but I can always keep alcohol. Also, even though alcohol has half the energy of white gas or kerosene, it would still be less weight than the snow it could melt.

Did you mean -10/-15C? That is pretty cold, and I probably wouldn't want to be out camping in it, at least not with that being the daytime temps. Even in January, daytime temps here are usually above 0F (-17C). If you meant +10/15C, well that would be the average winter indoor temp at my place. If you visit you might want to bring a sweater.

so it sounds like you're not really talking about building a fire instead of a stove, you just want a small vest stove. something you can carry on your person in the event you lose your gear (?).

FWIW, I've noticed most people seem to have stoves as a safety net in the event that building a fire is not an option (such as no wood available), or as a quicker and easier way to boil some water for cooking (which can be beneficial when it's dark or wet, or you're tired). I don't think that discussing the preferred stoves means alternate methods aren't also considered. The thread is titled "backpacking/survival stove", so it makes sense to me that backpack stoves (and not pocket stoves) are what have been discussed so far. But I like the idea of pocket stoves.


IIRC esbit tabs work wet or dry, yes? I could see that being handy that purpose.
Or as Art_in_FL mentioned, putting a trangia burner in a pocket should also work. The clickstands are on the expensive side, but pack very small so they might be pocket-friendly.

as an alternative to a clickstand, I've always admired this cheap, light and small stove setup which could be used with a trangia burner instead of a coke stove: http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18507 (I don't know if Woods Walker is on this forum as well)

This is to say of course that in an emergency you do not become seperated from your stove/fuel/cookwear I assume? I know that several companies make micro stoves and titanium cookware which are light weight, and many like the pepsi can type as well. BUT.....how many out there actually have 1 complete stove kit in their EDC? If such an item is that important to carry, would one not be likely to be redundant about it? IE..fire, BIC then matches them a fire rod. Honestly, if a stove is that high on ones emergency list they would not carry just one. So thinking of picking a single stove seems hard enough, as I see many above have enough to have one heck of a nice swap meet. I would surely hate to have to pick 2 or 3 for a survival situation. Stoves are nice, I like them, they cook fast, but we're not camping either.

The tabs are packaged in individual plastic tubs with foil lids, kind of like you sometimes see for margerine packs at a diner. They seem waterproof. The tabs also have some sort of water resistant wax or coating on them. If you take a tab out of the package and douse it with water, it'll light with a match or lighter. I just tried this with 10+ year old tabs and they worked fine.

Once a tab has been lit and extinguished, however, it's not waterproof anymore. They seem to absorb water and are very difficult to light. Also, while it's possible to light a tab with one match, it took me two. It's easy with a lighter, or with 1/2 of the spark-lite tinder.

Used an Esbit as my primary stove for a couple of years. If you stack 3 Esbit tabs and have a good windscreen it will boil 2L of water in about 5 min. You'd be surprised how hot those tablets burn. I'd say they're at least equal in temp to 91% alcohol.

Hey CANOEDOGS,

I have one of the old Camp GAZ Bluet stoves but I can't find fuel canisters in the U.S. anywhere. Do you know of a source for them or is there some sort of alternative that you can use? My stove is of the type that punctures the top of the canister which means that you must use all of the fuel before you remove it.

Thanks,
LW

It's not "much more difficult." It just takes slightly more patience.



Not in my real world but anecdotal experience, typically boiling 2-3 cups of water. More like 2 times longer.



These stoves won't be running in a steady state, Frequent stopping, starting, priming and warm-ups alter fuel efficiency numbers.

My only point originally was that alcohol is safe and convenient for me as a BOB stove, since I DON'T need "even more boiling capacity," will be storing it in my car long-term, and live in FL. But I have to wonder what would I do in a survival or disaster situation when the gas cartridge runs out. Also note that I carry a second, 1/2 oz, alcohol burner,just in case.



Clearly, gas is a better choice, and my choice, for winter, group, or longer distance backpacking trips. Multi-fuels also work well for long term survival scenarios.

My go to stove for years has been Camping Gaz units. But recently moved to the White Box Stove. Its an alcohol stove, that I use with Denatured Alcohol. Super easy to find when traveling and cheap.

Wrap some kevlar twine around the body, below the flame holes, dab some alcohol on it, fill the stove bottom, light the kevlar and it will flame a minute faster. Saves on fuel weight and time.

Lone--i got the carts at REI,they just have the large ones.the smaller ones to fit the older stove are collector items i'm told.
that stove went along to be used to make dinner in a drive-in camp before i went off the next AM for two weeks of canoeing.i take a old stove just for the photos i can post at the camp stove site.i used the US Army stoves other years.

Art..i have several carbide lamps and a can of "rocks".i have taken one on a camping trip to light up the area at nite just for the fun of using one.never thought how it might work as a stove..
good brain picking session here,just what i was after.next time i'll try and be a bit more clear about what i'm looking for.

TY..yup..a stove i can carry in a PFD pocket.last trip out i looked around on a stormy day at all the wet,moss covered wood and thought if i was washed ashore i would need a blowtorch to get something going asap.in camp with lots of time and a ax i can make a fire..with one match and i posted the shots here,in the rain.



nice photo for a coffee table book of canoe country but it was on this day and along miles of shore like this that the thought crossed my mind that a real stove and not fire lighters and a Bic would be what i would need in a survival situation.

As I was reading this thread, I couldn't help thinking a wood gas stove would be a great survival stove.

I don't think it would help canoedogs though as it probably wouldn't fit in a vest. But would probably be very handy to carry in the canoe.

For emergencies, a little candle lantern would be handy. As mentioned, that under a tarp or poncho or trash bag would probably get you warm and it's multi-function. I have the UCO and mini-UCO candle lanterns. Those would certainly fit in a vest pocket.

And I always carry some fatwood. That is great stuff especially when you need a fire and it's wet out. Although granted, I haven't had to start a fire while getting hypothermia. Only had to do it wet and cold, but not that cold.

Thanks.

I looked on their website and there is a notice that states they can no longer ship butane cartridges via mail or whatever. It appears that they are stocked in the stores. Problem is that I don't live near a store and don't really think I will be near one until the latter part of next month. I may try to pick up some cartridges then.

Thanks again,
LW

that's gorgeous! and yes, I can see why you'd like to have a pocket stove as a backup, not relying entirely on starting a fire with materials in the surroundings.

Canoedogs, in your photo it looks like there's some chunks of dead birch trees. Slit the bark and peel it off the rotting wood and light it with your Bic. Burns like it's soaked in oil.

For me, a "survival stove" is a nice campfire. Granted, there are times where a stove is nice to have. In the snow, for instance.

For your life jacket, I suggest a girl-scout approved "buddy burner". Traditionally you take an empty tuna can and cut a strip of corrigated cardboard which you coil up tightly inside it. Melt some wax and fill the can. You could make it in something like a round mint tin with a lid for a pocket version.

It's shelf stable, as long as it doesn't get too hot or if you add the right amount stearin to the wax.
Waterproof.
Lights pretty easily.
Burns hot and long, even in the wind once it gets going.
Ruins your cookware with sticky soot, but who cares when you're in trouble?
Could also be used as a fire starter...

Tom..all good ideas,the woods are full of birch and pine that start and burn like a torch but i don't want to have to depend on my natural surroundings for something to make heat fast.i could find myself in a stand of aspen which takes a good hot fire to get it to burn or so numb that fooling around with a knife is out of the question. the problem is i will never know what i will find.a few years ago i was driven off a huge lake by a storm and landed on a sandy sheltered beach with enough drift wood for a Scout Jamboree bonfire.the buddy burner is a good thought.no fuel to spill or small burner parts to bust.with a good heavy lamp wick and a mix of beeswax's and fatwood bits i could see it making a fast hot fire and it could be pushed out of shape or wet and still work.i had thought about using some of the cans of Army ration heater,the old cans of wood alcohol,but the fumes that come off and the possible problem prying off the lid made me set that idea aside.well i have all winter,i'm sure i'll come up with something.



this is the fire starter i worked on last winter and it went along on the canoe trips.it's a Green Heat fire jell that i fixed up to open with one hand.it more than likely would get a fire of some sort going before it burned out but like i said,this year i looked at all that wet moss coated ground and rotten wood and started thinking a real stove would be a better bet.

That is MY STOVE! I love it because it has no moving part in the hot section... which equates to hardly nothing that can go wrong. You use pressure (pump/de-pressurize) to regulate the power. The only things that can give you trouble is the pump (typical a very easy fix with a gasket or something!) or the nozzle is clogged because of dirty fuel (easily cleaned with a pin that you pack along with the stove).

Most other stoves will regulate the power with some sort mechanism in the "hot" part of the stove. Heating and cooling fragile mechanical part is not my idea of robustness....



When you're fed up with that alcohol burner, Trangia makes an excellent gaz burner that will replace the trangia alcohol stove. You can see it here:
http://trangia.se/english/2925.original_accessories.html, on the right side of the page (part nr. 742527). No moving parts in the head...


Oh - have a second look at that trangia gaz burner. Notice that little "loop" that the fuel line makes over the flame section of the head? That loop means you can feed the stove with LIQUID gaz, it will evaporate in that loop. In other words, when the stove is burning you flip the gaz canister upside-down. The fuel line will now be filled with liquid gaz (which is heavier than "gazzified" gaz).

Typically, the performance of stoves is limited by the evaporation in the gaz canister, which a) requires energy (i.e. heat - which is why the gaz canister cools off during use), and b) is highly affected by low temperatures. By flipping the gaz canister upside down you take a) and b) out of the equation - but you can ONLY do that on stoves that has that little "loop" through the flames. Blast can probably confirm that spitting drops of liquid gaz out through the nozzle will create a GIANT fireball...

Of course, gaz canister has inevitable limitations in the winter, but I find that I can push the boundaries quite a bit using a trangia burner and the "flip the canister" tricks. As always, use at your own risk...

Canoedogs, your challenge to find a stove or heat source that fits into a vest pocket is hard to match.
You started me thinking about it so I was looking through my junk and doing some searches through the supplier's materials.

I keep running into the problem of what fuel can give you a useful amount of heat in that compact of a package especially when the package includes the burner.
I seem to keep coming back to some type of can candle or one of those miniature butane powered wonders.

At least with the candle it can be used as an accelerant for fire starting.

Let me try to sneak up on this challenge.

Central California is experiencing ithe first severe winter storm of winter: heavy wind, heavy rain, and major temperature drops. If I were canoeing and went in with just what is in my pockets and PFD vest, far from other help, I think I can put myself conceptually in Canoedogs' place.

I would want to stoke my internal "fire" immediately by consuming some very high energy and easy to digest food source, like a cyclists gel packs of goo. I would want to shelter from the chilling effects of rain and wind in something like a heatsheet or other space age blanket / poncho. I would want to start some self-heating food packs "cooking." And then I would want to use no-fail starters [gel, tabs, whatever] to create a large heat source to dry and warm myself - a fire. Once I had a fire going I would want to slow down, eat, and think through my situation.

No role for a small cook stove in the scenario to this point.

Otherwise, if I have my drybags and packs, I am just camping out and have no need for a cook stove in my pfd/vest.

Have I missed something?

How about this pocket stove?



Esbit emergency stove - scroll down to it. For $2.75 you really can't go wrong.

This is a great web store, by the way. I'm a satisfied customer.

I see that you already have an MSR Titan kettle, all you need is an Brunton Optimus Crux Stove or the lighter weight Primus Micron titanium Stove and a MSR Isopro 4 oz gas cartridge . Both the gas cartridge and stove should fit into the Titan Kettle.



MSR Titan Kettle with Primus Micron Titanium and 8 oz MSR gas cartridge

The clickstand looks pretty good, but I couldn't work out where you're supposed to put some of the other fuels they list (such as solid fuel tablets) if you want to run it that way.


Has anyone tried using a Greenheat gel fuel sachet in a Trangia burner?

Assuming the whole sachet is used up (so no need to clean out leftover gel afterwards), can anyone see a problem with doing so?

Thanks,
Tag

Paul an Ex Sandhurst Trained British Army Officer was fired from the Apprentice UK TV show because he selected the wrong stove and couldn't get his sausages cooked properly to sell them to the French.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q6WFFoCtb4 Part1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FMlB-1KmRA Part2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V98ufDgZup4 Part3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27ntaMmvMIk Part4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxLsE54luH4 Part5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4PcMEyXm2k Part6 - Watch Paul get fired....

My SAR pack routinely included a small pan and a Trangia. It was dead simple, allowing one to devote attention to other matters while food or water was cooking. If really cold temperatures were on the dance card, I would usually replace it with a SVEA or a small cartridge stove.

In a stark survival situation, I would go with a campfire. You don't need to carry all that much to insure proper and continued ignition, in most situations. But circumstances do vary, don't they?

I blame you guys for costing me money when I realize how woefully unprepared I am . But maybe Santa will be extra generous this year.

If you're looking at selecting a stove for use outdoors, whatever you get, don't underestimate the importance of a really good windscreen.

I may have mentioned this before on this forum, but last year my son had to do a science fair project and ended up testing backpacking stove (Whisperlite) boil times with and without the windscreen with a very light breeze. The difference was amazing - beyond my expectation.

He ran this in the back corner of our garage to remove outside sources of wind. He started with a fan at high (5.5 mph breeze as measured by my Brunton ADC Wind meter) but he couldn't get water to go above 170F, so he lowered the fan speed to low. Then he was concerned that about the definition of "boil", so he measured time to take one quart (4 cups) of water from about 50F to 190F.

Here are the results:

With Windscreen, but no lid: 6:30 (min:sec)and 8:10
Without Windscreen, but no lid: 16:45 and >22:00*
Windscreen & foil Lid (w/ thermometer poked through): 4:45

*He actually gave up after 22 minutes because he simply couldn't get the temp to go above 180F. We're not sure why he got it up to temperature once, but not twice. It was getting later into the early evening and it was getting a bit colder out. That's all we could think of. The times were captured in the order shown above.

Ken K.

+1 on the wind screen, but don't forget the lid! Evaporation is a major heat loss. Trap it beneath a lid! Any lid will do, alu foil works really well for a lid.

Windscreen and lid make a huge difference. I second that. And a good windscreen and lid can allow a marginal stove to punch a bit above its weight. But my preference is for a stove that has enough power to spare so that conditions don't need to be ideal to get acceptable results.

Hypothermic, with stiff, uncooperative hands and rapidly running out of time, while a storm rages around me, is not the time I want a prema donna, finicky, stove that needs everything just-so before it will work. Everything works pretty well when things are just-right. I want gear that meets, preferably exceeds, expectations when things suck. When I don't have the energy, time or proper materials to cater to them. I want my equipment to take care of me. Ideally without my having to take too much care of it. Selfish? Why yes. But equipment is supposed to serve my needs. I would rather get through a tough spot and have the equipment destroyed than have someone find my bones near the very shiny gear I pampered.

That said every piece, and person, has limitations. Limitations that have to be worked around. Survival is often a matter of doing the most with the least. You can cut down a giant sequoia with a pen knife. Just a matter of time and patience. Prisoners are said to sometimes cook over a tiny fire fed with matchsticks and small balls of toilet paper. Matchsticks and balls of paper aren't going to put Wolf stoves out of business but you roll with what you have. I'm generally willing to carry little more more in weight and bulk to get a little more output, tolerance for rough conditions and robustness.

I know at least one person who winter camps in a frigid climate, to -10F or so, without any stove or fire. He lives on gorp and gets all his warmth from body heat and exercise. I get cold thinking about it. I'm a Florida boy with 90w gear oil for blood, good from 105F to 60F or so. I need my heat.

The stove my son used for his experiment was an MSR Whisperlite. Most people recognize that it puts out a lot of heat - as much as just about any other backpacking stove. Its commonly referred to as a "blast furnace".

Unfortunately that phrase is used when mentioning that it has only two settings - off and blast furnace. I've used ceramic gauze flame spreaders to add to the versatility.

Like I had said, both my son and I expected to see an improvement when the windscreen was used, but we were surprised by how difficult/impossible it was to get a boil without it. The one combination he didn't try - and I wish he had - was without the windscreen but with a lid.

Most all of our winter camping (under 40F) has been with my son's Scout troop using suitcase style propane stoves with 20# LP tanks. The stoves have pretty nice large windscreens that work pretty well. The boys quickly learn to rotate the stove to block the wind in order to be able to cook.

In this discussion I'm assuming that by "survival stove" the stove's primary survival function is boiling water to make it potable. In general I tend not to view meal preparation as a survival activity - though as recent posts show, skipping meals can certainly impact one's mental & physical condition, which can lead to matters getting worse.


Ken K.

This is my current lightweight stove kit setup.



Primus EtaPower 1 litre Pot with Fry Pan Lid - Weight 290 grams.

Optimus Folding Stove - Weight 90 grams

Home made Titanium Windscreen - Weight 60 grams

Brunton Lighter and Fuel Tool - Weight 84 grams

Propane/Butane Coleman 100gram Cartridge - Weight 150 grams
or
MSR Isobutane/Propane Stove Cartridge - Weight 354 grams

Total Weight with 100 gram Colemane Cartridge including stuff sacks etc - 745 grams - Certainly not the lightest but gives a good compromise in difficult conditions if needed. During Winter conditions I would use the MSR isobutane cartridge instead.



The optimus gives a good hot flame and when combined with the EtaPower pot with the built in heat exchanger can boil 0.5 Litres of cold water in less than 2 1/2 minutes in difficult conditions with excellent efficiency approaching the MSR Reactor stove but with the flexibility to use other pots and kettles when needed i.e. a Primus tea kettle.



I haven't had a chance to use the lightweight Titanium windshield in the field yet but it does look quite promising to help improve efficiency of the stove in very windy difficult conditions during winter.

The setup looks awesome, but my initial gut reaction is "that is a HUGE gap between the windscreen and the pot". You may want to try out tightening the titanium wind screen (which really is just a sheet of titanium bent around the stove, right?). My proposal is to add several points of attatchment so you can adjust to the optimum size for different pots. I think a gap of 1 cm (about 0.4 inches) is about right.

You also may want to consider raising the wind screen just a bit, allowing for a draft underneath but covering the pot higher up. (Or a higher windscreen sheet, but I guess that is out of the question).

Mind you, I don't really have the experience to add such claims - just a hunch and gut feeling of may work best. Experiment and do tell us what is the best setup.

The MSR Whisperlite and Dragonfly stoves recommend that gap between the pot and windscreen be 1 inch "for optimum performance".




That brings up an interesting point. The MSR windscreens sit directly on an aluminum heat reflector disk with no gap. That would be an interesting experiment - with and without a gap at the bottom of the windscreen.

I'm trying to think of whether a stove transfers heat through convection (air movement), conduction (movement of heat through materials), or radiation (heat coming directly from the flame). I think its mostly by radiation. I think.

Looks like a winner of a setup there. Nice.

What I want to know is if the stove overheats or for some other reason you want to turn down the stove how do you work the valve on the stove when it is in the windscreen? How easy is it to open the windscreen? Perhaps I'm over thinking it but I'm feeling like I would want a small hole, just big enough for a couple of fingers. Or perhaps just large enough for a stiff piece of wire that I could use to work the valve on the stove.

Most gear won't show its secrets, for better or worse, and the intricacies of how to handle it effectively, until you go camping in rough conditions or get creative with backyard testing. I once helped someone test her gear in the backyard I was in charge of the fans and garden sprinklers, wind and rain. Being Florida, and a bit short of real cold, she pressed a friend who owned a restaurant to let us use their walk-in freezer. The ceiling hung evaporator kept a stead wind going so I just had to use a spray bottle to simulate wet sleet. Damn near froze my fingers off.

She said, when she got back from her expedition, for the first days of a storm she was the only person who had a firm handle on how to work her stove and cooking setup in sub-zero wind and sleet. Others ended up wasting time and fuel, experiencing a lot of frustration, learning to function. She had done most of her learning at midnight, the only time it was free, in a walk-in freezer.

I can also report that time spent torturing your girlfriend in a freezer earns you big points. Made the frostbite entirely worth it. Who knew?.

Hmm, I have another opinion about the windscreen. The wide gap around the stove in this case is a blessing in disguise at it provides more space around the cannister and avoiding a potential problem. In fact a wind screen that is too close to the cannister and stove can overheat the cannister. If you tighten the windscreen, better to allow for a lot of bottom ventilation so that the a good portion of the heat isn't reflected down on to the cannister. Having good airflow from underneath will help carry the heat up the sides of the pot and better to cook the entire pot instead of just the bottom. Just don't enclose the cannister - a disc reflector under the flame can also help prevent the cannister from overheating.

Getting the balance between ensuring enough ventilation and access to the stove controls and ensuring a good enough shield from the wind can be a bit tricky. I have punched through some holes using a paper punch at the bottom of the windshield. The idea was that the wind shield would be pegged to the ground using 4-5 lightweight ti tent pegs with the wind shield arranged in a horseshoe arrangement with the curved top part formed into the direction of the wind. The Titanium sheet is quite rigid even when not formed into a tube structure so it should hopefully stand up to the wind conditions. Hopefully it will successfully replace a much heavier flat folding Rigid Aluminium wind shield like the one below.



The heat from the stove could be a problem causing the stove gas cartridge to overheat only if the stove flame actually stayed burning. When I arranged the windshield with a very narrow gap then put the pot on, the stove actually went out due to the lack of oxygen starving the flame, hence the much wider gap between the wind shield and pot. The heat exchanger on the base of the pot is very impressive at transferring the heat from the stove directly into the water as there appears to be very little heat going up the side of the pot. I might consider using an aluminium reflector though in warmer sunnier conditions but during colder days overheating the gas cartridge isn't really a problem but can help keep the gas cartridge working by maintaining internal gas temperatures above freezing.

It seems to me that some posters have limited experience with gas appliances. While it is wise to be aware of the dangers of CO2, use of a camping/backpacking stove or lantern for emergency cooking and illumination is really not as dangerous as some warnings make out. Unless you are in a small space or a room specifically designed to be air-tight, the CO2 put off by a single gas lamp and, intermittently, by camping/backpacking stove poses no more risk than using a residential cooking appliance that uses natural or propane gas.

As for wood-burning fireplaces, wood-burning stoves, coal stoves, even vented gas fireplaces and heaters, these things are all designed to exhaust fumes outside. Many people, including myself, have spent weeks at hunting/vacation cabins without electricity, relying only on wood-burning and gas appliances for heat, light and cooking. Our ancestors lived with these conditions 365-days a year.

I wouldn't use an unvented gas (or any other) appliance for heat without cracking a window. I wouldn't use dirtier fuels such as charcoal or any liquid fuels indoors, both because of safety (spilled, burning fuel) as well as fumes. And the only thing I'd trust in a tent is a well-protected candle.

We've had as many as six adults stay in a 12x16', 1 room cabin for several days, with the wood stove going continuously, cooking most of our meals on an RV-size propane stove/oven combo, a Zodi propane unit for warm water, and Coleman propane lanterns for light. The cabin is fairly tight (to keep out the critters), but we never had any issues related to CO2, (cramped space and various bodily odors were another story).