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#179130 - 08/12/09 05:18 PM Re: Death in Death Valley - Jeep Stranded on Camp [Re: 7point82]
philip Offline
Addict

Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 639
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
> I'm sure you see the connection.

No, sorry, I don't. And to add to my confusion, you say you have no idea if she's a good nurse, this event is not de facto evidence of her abilities, she may be a great nurse, etc. I don't see the connection between survival skills in Death Valley and whatever her career is. And your comments don't assure me that there is one.

I don't expect my auto mechanic, barber, and financial advisor to be able to camp in Death Valley to prove their competence in their fields, but maybe that's just me.

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#179134 - 08/12/09 05:46 PM Re: Death in Death Valley - Jeep Stranded on Camp [Re: philip]
7point82 Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/24/05
Posts: 478
Loc: Oklahoma
My barber doesn't make life and death decisions for me or my family.

I would expect a health care professional that may have to make life and death decisions for my family to be able to think on their feet, exhibit some problem solving and planning skills.

Like I said, I don't consider the sad events in Death Valley to be de facto evidence that she's incompetent but (in my opinion grin) they can't be completely ignored either.

We obviously don't agree whether or not her inability to plan or problem solve in this situation has any relation to her vocational abilities. I can't completely separate one group of decisions from the other. If you can then great. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion right? wink
_________________________
"There is not a man of us who does not at times need a helping hand to be stretched out to him, and then shame upon him who will not stretch out the helping hand to his brother." -Theodore Roosevelt

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#179141 - 08/12/09 08:26 PM Re: Death in Death Valley - Jeep Stranded on Camp [Re: NightHiker]
Jeff_M Offline
Addict

Registered: 07/18/07
Posts: 665
Loc: Northwest Florida
Originally Posted By: NightHiker
Originally Posted By: philip
> I'm sure you see the connection.

No, sorry, I don't. And to add to my confusion, you say you have no idea if she's a good nurse, this event is not de facto evidence of her abilities, she may be a great nurse, etc. I don't see the connection between survival skills in Death Valley and whatever her career is. And your comments don't assure me that there is one.

I don't expect my auto mechanic, barber, and financial advisor to be able to camp in Death Valley to prove their competence in their fields, but maybe that's just me.


Maybe it's just me but I would expect a nurse to demonstrate a basic understanding of human physiology and how to go about maintaining homeostasis. Anybody in the medical field should make an immediate connection to the term desert in middle of summer and dehydration & heat stroke.


It's a testament to Philip's good character that he doesn't rush to harsh judgments, or readily condemn, people for their errors in judgment. Too often, it seems to me that some here a a bit quick, and perhaps overly critical, in their pronouncements about the failings of ordinary people who do lack our generally higher level of awareness and preparation, and end up paying the price for it. But, that being said, I've kinda got to go with NightHiker on this one.

It's reasonable to expect good decision-making from health care professionals regarding basic safety and physiological needs. Dehydration and heat illness are, indeed, common medical emergencies, and entirely foreseeable risks in the context at hand, and she, as an RN, really should have anticipated them, in my opinion.

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#179145 - 08/12/09 11:04 PM Re: Death in Death Valley - Jeep Stranded on Camp [Re: Jeff_M]
7point82 Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/24/05
Posts: 478
Loc: Oklahoma
Originally Posted By: Jeff_M

It's a testament to Philip's good character that he doesn't rush to harsh judgments, or readily condemn, people for their errors in judgment. Too often, it seems to me that some here a a bit quick, and perhaps overly critical, in their pronouncements about the failings of ordinary people who do lack our generally higher level of awareness and preparation, and end up paying the price for it.

...snip


Agreed. Philip seems to have a great heart for folks and it's obvious that he tries to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

There doesn't seem to be any shortage of people (particularly online) willing to pile on and condemn someone that has made a mistake. I would think that a great deal of that stems from thinking we would do better, hoping we would do better & wanting others to think we would do better. Of course we all have the luxuries of with time to think with a clear head, foresight and hindsight.

I typically try to avoid condemning anyone in thread like this because, no matter how many news reports I've read, I wasn't there. I know what it's like to have people Monday morning quarterback your decisions. I earn my living making important decisions on zero notice. I spend a good portion of my time sitting in meetings just in case I have to defend myself or a member of my team from a Monday morning quarterback. My mere presence there seems to slow mouths down (and speed brains up) enough that I rarely have to speak. wink
_________________________
"There is not a man of us who does not at times need a helping hand to be stretched out to him, and then shame upon him who will not stretch out the helping hand to his brother." -Theodore Roosevelt

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#179149 - 08/12/09 11:43 PM Re: Death in Death Valley - Jeep Stranded on Camp [Re: NightHiker]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2183
Loc: Deep south... Carolina
[quote=NightHiker it's probably too much to hope that most of them will be able to extrapolate anything more from it than "oh wow, they call it Death Valley for a reason" [/quote]

I assume that was a dig at me... but mainly I was trying to avoid attacking every decision she made. I mean, she lost her kid. watched him die in front of her, over 4 days. i think that's a pretty good lesson there. she doesn't need me to critique her from my couch.

Anyway, to answer some of the questions... I grew up in SoCal, about 4 hour drive to Vegas. We (my family and I, then myself with friends) made that trip dozens of times. Always along the interstate. Even then, we usually carried 2 quarts of water, and some sodas, in case we broke down along the highway. I-15 is pretty well traveled, so I was never worried about being too far from someone. Plus, Baker and Barstow are pretty much equidistant between Vegas and the greater-LA metro area.

I've also camped in Joshua Tree and Anzo-Borrego. Rule of thumb was one 2.5gallon water bottle (from the supermarket) per person, usually for 2-3 day average trip. Obviously multiple bottles if longer than 3 days. These camping trips were all car-camping, so weight wasn't so much an issue. I doubt I'd ever want to hike there (though I hear part of the Pacific Crest Trail runs through desert) and carry my own water.

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#179151 - 08/12/09 11:59 PM Re: Death in Death Valley - Jeep Stranded on Camp [Re: RoverOver]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
"Those "Harmless" Coyotes regularly eat family pets..."

Yes, they certainly do... when the pets are running loose, when the pets are in the back yard at night.

NOT usually when the pet is on a leash walking beside the owner.


Dagney, in hot weather, at least one gallon per person per day, probably the same for a large dog. If you're going into rough, mostly-unoccupied country, as much as you can take with you.

Other than taking some water with them, I haven't read any article that indicated this woman did anything that involved common sense. Kind of odd that the largest body survived, and the smallest body survived.

Now, I'm sure this will sound nasty to many, but IF she was some kind of PsychoMom, and IF she wanted to kill her son without hands-on violence or blame, I don't think she could have done a better job than she did.

Sympathy for incredibly stupid people? Not from me. I'll save my sympathy for their victims. And the count continues...

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#179166 - 08/13/09 02:28 AM Re: Death in Death Valley - Jeep Stranded on Camp [Re: Susan]
scafool Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 1534
Loc: Muskoka
I do not want to read her mind from a distance and ascribe motives. That would be a bit crazy. I will leave it to others to figure out if she was suicidal, homicidal or insane.
Her being only 20 miles from the highway might not be something she knew either. After all, she drove over 30 miles down the trail before she got stuck.

Parts of the story indicate some self reliance like being able to change a tire, trying to get to a high point and try calling on the cell phone, etc.
Maybe she simply got lost and didn't know how to locate herself.
Lots of us take wrong turns and she seems to have turned the wrong direction at least twice. I have even seen people lost with compasses, GPS and maps who simply would not believe where they were or which way north was until you walked them out the trail to their car.
Oh well...

Maybe the only lessons we can glean out of this is how bad things can fall apart when they start to fall apart and how it is important to be ready for it when they do.
_________________________
May set off to explore without any sense of direction or how to return.

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#179193 - 08/13/09 02:10 PM Re: Death in Death Valley - Jeep Stranded on Camp [Re: scafool]
Russ Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4456
Loc: SOCAL
I have an excuse she can use. . . It's not like she just drove out into Death Valley, she was in found in the southwest corner of Death Valley National Park (which could be considered an oxymoron). I don't know what she expected, but back east the parks are relatively safe. . . and green. . . and a park ranger will be along any minute to offer assistance or tell her she can't park where her car broke down. Dorothy's not in Kansas any more.

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#179195 - 08/13/09 02:42 PM Re: Death in Death Valley - Jeep Stranded on Camp [Re: Russ]
Dagny Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1890
Loc: Washington, DC
Originally Posted By: Russ
I don't know what she expected, but back east the parks are relatively safe. . . and green. . . and a park ranger will be along any minute to offer assistance or tell her she can't park where her car broke down. Dorothy's not in Kansas any more.



Truly. Unless they've driven across the country or at least around the western expanses, DC friends are surprised when I say you may have to go over 100 miles before there's another gas station. And that's Interstate.

I don't worry about getting lost in Shenandoah National Park because if I can determine east or west, help is not terribly far away. (being injured and doing so is another matter, of course). And well-marked trails abound.

The biggest external danger in SNP is being run over by a speeding RV.

I think she had recently moved from Illinois. Don't know what her life history is.




Edited by Dagny (08/13/09 02:51 PM)

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#179201 - 08/13/09 03:09 PM Re: Death in Death Valley - Jeep Stranded on Camp [Re: NightHiker]
Stu Offline
I am not a P.P.o.W.
Old Hand

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1058
Loc: Finger Lakes of NY State
Some things to think on

I believe I read somewhere a number of years ago that simply being dehydrated as little as 5% can affect a persons judgment and interfere with clear thought processes.

Was the found water bottle full or empty? Was she strong enough to put the flat tire back in the car, in the temperatures she was in, or was she weakened by lack of water and the heat? Did she put a note with the tire that may have been lost? Who knows.

Will we ever know what really happened?

BTW, when full 24 16 ounce bottles equal 384 ounces divided by 128 (ounces in a US gallon) equals 3 gallons of water.

.
_________________________
Our most important survival tool is our brain, and for many, that tool is way underused! SBRaider
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