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#179064 - 08/11/09 07:02 PM Re: Death in Death Valley - Jeep Stranded on Camp [Re: el_diabl0]
DesertFox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/04/07
Posts: 339
Loc: New York, NY
"I think after the first day I would have traveled by night back the way I came, hoping to get back to the main road. Not sure how far that might have been, maybe dozens of miles or more."

Good point. The usual advice is to stay put, but if you know you only have one day's worth of water left, do you use it on a night trek or stay, hoping for rescue the next day? If you stay and rescue doesn't come, do you walk out the second night without water?

I worked in an underground mine on the border of Death Valley for a couple of years. We had a couple of "mishaps" with the four-wheel drives in the valley. Twice we walked out at night. We never went out alone, always had plenty of water, and knew the area well, so that probably isn't a fair comparison.

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#179067 - 08/11/09 07:40 PM Re: Death in Death Valley - Jeep Stranded on Camp [Re: NightHiker]
scafool Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 1534
Loc: Muskoka
I might be going a bit sideways on this post, but oh well.

One of the first points about survival situations is to avoid them.
I think the whole point of being prepared is to prevent a relatively small emergency from becoming a life threatening situation.
The more dangerous it is the more you need to do to reduce the risks.

Apparently something went seriously wrong with the risk assessment and the responses to it in her case.

I noted earlier that a lot of people place to much faith in their vehicles.
I do not care what a piece of machinery is. Skidoo. plane, jeep or train. I am not willing to bet my life on it working or not if I can help it.

What she should have done after the fact is moot.

I can not fault her for being able to change a tire but leaving the flat behind. I can't even fault her getting stuck and being unable to get unstuck.
She likely did the best she could with what she had.

It is what she should have done before she started her death ride across the burning sands that might have made a difference.

Her losing her son was a tragedy and it was 100% preventable.

I do not think it helps to blame, but I do think it might help prevent others from making the same dumb mistakes if it is mentioned.

I can fault her for:
not leaving travel plans, contact points
not making sure she had good communications
not having a good map,not having effective navigationaids
not having enough enough water to last until help arrived.

I can fault her for not having something to dig or pull her jeep out when it got stuck and for going to far from a safe return point to get home if her vehicle failed her...

There are a lot of things I could find fault with.

There are a lot of things many of us would have done differently before even turning the ignition key on that trip, just out of habit.

I would like to hear more about what could have been done by her to avoid her situation before it became a desperate tragedy.
_________________________
May set off to explore without any sense of direction or how to return.

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#179068 - 08/11/09 07:54 PM Re: Death in Death Valley - Jeep Stranded on Camp [Re: el_diabl0]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
Best to just stay with the vehicle especially if you do not know where you are and do not where you are heading if you want to walk out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CT0470DVKE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJkG4H4x8pE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tORer5pJJxM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3XhZOyisrU

Although in this tragic case just because this unfortunate woman had a GPS it didn't mean she knew where she was, let alone know in which directional to head off to, even if she attempted a hike out. She also had a working vehicle, which was capable of being driven out if she had the ability to get it out of the hole it was in. A lot of folks just give up if their vehicles get bogged down when a little more persistence will usually get the vehicle free, even if it means digging it out all night long (assuming of course she even had a shovel).

Even leaving the tyre behind was a mistake as it would of made a nice smoky black signal fire. She should of made herself a cup of tea after changing the tyre and had a little think about what she was going to do next and to calm down. It sounds as though she panicked when she got the first puncture even perhaps thinking travelling off road over sandy terrain would have made the chances of getting a second tire puncture less probable.





Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (08/11/09 08:01 PM)

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#179069 - 08/11/09 08:49 PM Re: Death in Death Valley - Jeep Stranded on Camp [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
This is strange....

I just dragged out my SoCal maps and looked at the area (haven't been there since 1980).

This woman was found 20 miles east of Trona. There is nothing there but dirt roads ending in sand. Where on earth did she think she was going? If they were going to Death Valley, why not just take the highway north right into the park?

And, since she still must have had a reasonable idea where she was, all they had to do when they realized they were stuck was take as much water as they could carry, wait for the sun to get low, and walk more or less straight west until they hit the highway. They started out with 25 lbs of water, so by the time they were in trouble, they might have had 20 lbs left, and each of them could have carried 10 lbs.

They had intended to camp overnight, so presumably they had something they could take for a sunshade. Twenty lousy miles -- they should have made it in two days, maximum.

Instead, she sat there in the sun for FIVE WHOLE DAYS and watched her son die.

What happened?

Was she afraid of the dark? Didn't know which way was west, that that's where the sun goes down? Afraid of harmless coyotes yipping? Too certain that they would be found soon, even though no one knew where they were? Afraid that the coyotes would steal the car? Incapable of thinking rationally at all in a tight situation?

By the way, staying with the vehicle is not a rule that is carved in stone. Staying with the car when you're miles and miles into the wilderness, or don't know where you are, is one thing. She was WAAAAAY too close to the highway (in almost a straight line) to think staying with the car was her only viable choice. They could have followed their own tire tracks back to the road.


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#179073 - 08/11/09 10:47 PM Re: Death in Death Valley - Jeep Stranded on Camp [Re: Susan]
CANOEDOGS Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 1853
Loc: MINNESOTA
Sue..this is what the survival issue is all about.people make bad choices.we try and get into their head so we don't make the same mistakes but until it happens who knows what we might really do.

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#179097 - 08/12/09 05:06 AM Re: Death in Death Valley - Jeep Stranded on Camp [Re: NightHiker]
RoverOver Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/16/09
Posts: 32
Loc: Kali4nya
The first thing to do is Attract Attention,That spare tire would burn quite readily,& The Black smoke would indicate some serious problems were happening.That whole area is frequented by Military Patrols,Rangers,& Most of all Miners,of whom many live on their claims,not to mention everyday explorers/trekkers!Smoke can be seen for Many,Many Miles in the desert,especially Black Smoke.I was in the Chinamans Ranch area aprox.25 miles east as the crow flies,just last week,& we converged on a backtrail,when we saw smoke from a Spot fire,probably 10 miles away,when we arrived,there were about 30 other vehicles there,before us,A family RV was stuck,& they lit a spare tire ablaze.Many more people were on their way there,as we were heading back.Remember this-Fire Attracts Attention! Just my 2 cents!

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#179098 - 08/12/09 05:16 AM Re: Death in Death Valley - Jeep Stranded on Camp [Re: Susan]
RoverOver Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/16/09
Posts: 32
Loc: Kali4nya
They had a Dachshund with them?Those "Harmless" Coyotes regularly eat family pets,including Rottweilers,German shephards,etc. They are pack animals,& in a pack,are some of the most efficient killers of prey on this Planet! Just ask any of our Many outdoorsman on this site,they will most certainly agree.

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#179109 - 08/12/09 12:20 PM Re: Death in Death Valley - Jeep Stranded on Camp [Re: philip]
7point82 Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/24/05
Posts: 478
Loc: Orange Beach, AL
Originally Posted By: philip
> If she is a nurse and she truely made all these mistakes, I feel worried
> about ptients in the hospoital where she works.

I'm sorry to say I don't see the connection; can you enlighten me, please?


I'm sure you see the connection. Although you may not agreed that her inability to (in this situation) plan appropriately or work though unfamiliar problems under stress necessarily apply to her vocational abilities as well.

Personally, I don't know the woman so I have absolutely no idea whether she's a competent nurse or not. She may be a great nurse but was operating far outside her area of expertise and failed to recognize it.

I will agree that this event is not de facto evidence that her nursing abilities are below par. However, if this event were the only thing I knew about the woman and she was going to be my nurse, I would at least have a little question mark next to her name in my mind.
_________________________
"There is not a man of us who does not at times need a helping hand to be stretched out to him, and then shame upon him who will not stretch out the helping hand to his brother." -Theodore Roosevelt

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#179120 - 08/12/09 03:28 PM Re: Death in Death Valley - Jeep Stranded on Camp Trip [Re: Dagny]
samhain Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/30/05
Posts: 598
Loc: Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Saddening.

Lots of opportunity to pick apart everything she did wrong. I'm going to defer at this point.

At least she packed some water, at least enough to get herself out. No consolation of course, losing a child is the worst thing I can imagine.

How many folks have we read about that didn't think to take anything?

(posting this as someone that has unintentionally done a bunch of stupid stuff in the past and will again...).

_________________________
peace,
samhain autumnwood

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#179129 - 08/12/09 05:18 PM Re: Death in Death Valley - Jeep Stranded on Camp [Re: RoverOver]
Dagny Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1918
Loc: Washington, DC
Originally Posted By: RoverOver
The first thing to do is Attract Attention,That spare tire would burn quite readily,& The Black smoke would indicate some serious problems were happening.That whole area is frequented by Military Patrols,Rangers,& Most of all Miners,of whom many live on their claims,not to mention everyday explorers/trekkers!Smoke can be seen for Many,Many Miles in the desert,especially Black Smoke.I was in the Chinamans Ranch area aprox.25 miles east as the crow flies,just last week,& we converged on a backtrail,when we saw smoke from a Spot fire,probably 10 miles away,when we arrived,there were about 30 other vehicles there,before us,A family RV was stuck,& they lit a spare tire ablaze.Many more people were on their way there,as we were heading back.Remember this-Fire Attracts Attention! Just my 2 cents!


Great point, thanks. Especially when you've got a flat to burn.

Monday morning quarterbacking after an incident like this is quite different from being in the unimaginably stressful situation, in 100+ degree heat (or freezing), worrying for your child. Most respect that.

The sober "after-action report/analysis" is how people learn and hopefully prevent some others from repeating the mistakes.

I'm still not clear on how much water one woman, a child and a little dog should have with them in Death Valley in summertime - if you stayed on the highway as most people do.

I've driven across country a few times -- in a 1969 Mustang and a Miata. Just me and a dog in the Miata. Just me in the Mustang (no cell phone on that trip). We didn't drive across Death Valley but we were going across Oregon, Idaho, Utah, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado. Interstates mostly, top temps in the 80s or 90s. But still I should have been more prepared than I was. I recall "Next Service Station 100+ miles" signage. I've been lucky, so far.

That Mustang had 205,000 miles on a newly overhauled engine. On the first day I pulled off in Idaho after smelling gas. Everything seemed fine and I didn't notice any more gas odor the rest of the trip. Got to DC a week later and 3 of the 4 bolts securing the carburetor to the engine were missing. The gasket was holding it together.

For my dog's sake I should carry more water than I have. For myself I usually had only a soda from the last fast food place we'd stopped at.

Is there a particular survival guide that peops here would recommend keeping in the car?


Obviously a book can't predict every nuance of a situation we might find ourselves in but basics like signaling and things to consider such as whether to stay with the vehicle would be helpful. Could be a useful touchstone if your mind is racing. Or at least give a panicky passenger something to read. Or provide tp.




Edited by Dagny (08/12/09 05:44 PM)

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