Equipped To Survive Equipped To Survive® Presents
The Survival Forum
Where do you want to go on ETS?

Page 5 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5
Topic Options
#178876 - 08/08/09 06:06 AM Re: Man in south Sacramento drives off attacking t [Re: Susan]
Art_in_FL Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2432
There is probably more than one side to that story. There is a chance the guy was so afraid of being Zerged that he pulled a Goetz. Fear often makes people see threats that don't actually exist. Either way I'm glad nobody died. Toss a gun into the mix and things might have ended up much uglier.

Look up the Universalist congregation and how they handled it when a guy threatened them with a shotgun. Completely unarmed a half dozen men rushed him. One died when he took one to the chest but the rest of them wrestled him to the ground and took away the gun. Breaking his arm in the process. Hard to imagine it turning out any better if someone had pulled out a pistol. A shootout with the congregation and a choir full of kids in the middle is an invitation to a bloodbath. One dead, one wounded and a lunatic hyped up on talk radio being led away in handcuffs may be as good as it gets.

The point I'm trying to make here is that firearms aren't magical. Yes, sometimes, they may deter a crime, limit harm and lower the body count. But they are easy to misuse even when the person is trained and operating in good faith. Near everything in movies or on TV about guns, self defense and crime is wrong. When guns are misused because the person misread the situation or was operating from media stereotypes or popular mythology, jingoism, or bumper sticker philosophy they make things worse.

Top
#178879 - 08/08/09 02:31 PM Re: Man in south Sacramento drives off attacking t [Re: Art_in_FL]
2005RedTJ Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/07/09
Posts: 475
Loc: Birmingham, Alabama
Originally Posted By: Art_in_FL
There is probably more than one side to that story. There is a chance the guy was so afraid of being Zerged that he pulled a Goetz. Fear often makes people see threats that don't actually exist. Either way I'm glad nobody died. Toss a gun into the mix and things might have ended up much uglier.

Look up the Universalist congregation and how they handled it when a guy threatened them with a shotgun. Completely unarmed a half dozen men rushed him. One died when he took one to the chest but the rest of them wrestled him to the ground and took away the gun. Breaking his arm in the process. Hard to imagine it turning out any better if someone had pulled out a pistol. A shootout with the congregation and a choir full of kids in the middle is an invitation to a bloodbath. One dead, one wounded and a lunatic hyped up on talk radio being led away in handcuffs may be as good as it gets.

The point I'm trying to make here is that firearms aren't magical. Yes, sometimes, they may deter a crime, limit harm and lower the body count. But they are easy to misuse even when the person is trained and operating in good faith. Near everything in movies or on TV about guns, self defense and crime is wrong. When guns are misused because the person misread the situation or was operating from media stereotypes or popular mythology, jingoism, or bumper sticker philosophy they make things worse.


So, you're saying that if I'm in church and I see a guy pull out a shotgun and start shooting, I shouldn't draw my .45 and shoot him? How would I have "misread the situation"?

If guns weren't effective at stopping crime, then police wouldn't carry them. Mind you, there are people out there who bought a gun, carry it every day, and have never fired it. In a bad situation those people are about as useful as those people I mentioned in the other thread who have a button on their dash labeled "4WD" that they've never used. They have no idea how it works when they need it and they think it'll magically fix the situation.

That said, I am trained in the use of a firearm. If I see a situation like the scenario you gave, I'm putting hollowpoints in the bad guy.

Top
#178881 - 08/08/09 03:22 PM Re: Man in south Sacramento drives off attacking t [Re: Art_in_FL]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 958
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Originally Posted By: Art_in_FL
There is probably more than one side to that story. There is a chance the guy was so afraid of being Zerged that he pulled a Goetz. Fear often makes people see threats that don't actually exist. Either way I'm glad nobody died. Toss a gun into the mix and things might have ended up much uglier.

Look up the Universalist congregation and how they handled it when a guy threatened them with a shotgun. Completely unarmed a half dozen men rushed him. One died when he took one to the chest but the rest of them wrestled him to the ground and took away the gun. Breaking his arm in the process. Hard to imagine it turning out any better if someone had pulled out a pistol. A shootout with the congregation and a choir full of kids in the middle is an invitation to a bloodbath. One dead, one wounded and a lunatic hyped up on talk radio being led away in handcuffs may be as good as it gets.

The point I'm trying to make here is that firearms aren't magical. Yes, sometimes, they may deter a crime, limit harm and lower the body count. But they are easy to misuse even when the person is trained and operating in good faith. Near everything in movies or on TV about guns, self defense and crime is wrong. When guns are misused because the person misread the situation or was operating from media stereotypes or popular mythology, jingoism, or bumper sticker philosophy they make things worse.



Here we go, more mythology from the left. Where's the sheriff?
Here is an opposite example of how a church handled it.

" The gunman opened fire at 12:30 a.m. at the Youth With a Mission center. Witnesses said the man asked to spend the night there and opened fire with a handgun when he was turned down. They described him as a young man, perhaps 20, in a dark jacket and cap.

Later, at New Life Church, a gunman wearing a trench coat and carrying a high-powered rifle opened fire in the parking lot and later walked into the church as a service was letting out.

Jeanne Assam, a church member who volunteers as a security guard, shot Murray, who was found with a rifle and two handguns, police said."

Top
#178889 - 08/08/09 10:51 PM Re: Man in south Sacramento drives off attacking t [Re: Art_in_FL]
KG2V Offline

Veteran

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 1371
Loc: Queens, New York City
Originally Posted By: Art_in_FL
...snip... There is a chance the guy was so afraid of being Zerged that he pulled a Goetz. Fear often makes people see threats that don't actually exist. ...snip...


Except, of course, in the case of Goetz, they basically believe his fear WAS justified, that there was a threat, just that the shootting of one of the guys a 2nd time was wrong.
_________________________
73 de KG2V
You are what you do when it counts - The Masso
Homepage: http://www.thegallos.com
Blog: http://kg2v.blogspot.com

Top
#178890 - 08/08/09 11:40 PM Re: Man in south Sacramento drives off attacking t [Re: KG2V]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4018
Loc: Anchorage AK
Saying firearms aren't a deterrent is like saying atomic bombs aren't a deterrent. If you have the knowledge, the discretion, and the will to use them, they are the most effective deterrent available in their given gendre. Neither are 100% effective, but both are the best thing going.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

Top
#178911 - 08/09/09 03:51 PM Re: Man in south Sacramento drives off attacking t [Re: Art_in_FL]
Tom_L Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/19/07
Posts: 690
Originally Posted By: Art_in_FL
There is probably more than one side to that story. There is a chance the guy was so afraid of being Zerged that he pulled a Goetz. Fear often makes people see threats that don't actually exist. Either way I'm glad nobody died. Toss a gun into the mix and things might have ended up much uglier.

Look up the Universalist congregation and how they handled it when a guy threatened them with a shotgun. Completely unarmed a half dozen men rushed him. One died when he took one to the chest but the rest of them wrestled him to the ground and took away the gun. Breaking his arm in the process. Hard to imagine it turning out any better if someone had pulled out a pistol. A shootout with the congregation and a choir full of kids in the middle is an invitation to a bloodbath. One dead, one wounded and a lunatic hyped up on talk radio being led away in handcuffs may be as good as it gets.

The point I'm trying to make here is that firearms aren't magical. Yes, sometimes, they may deter a crime, limit harm and lower the body count. But they are easy to misuse even when the person is trained and operating in good faith. Near everything in movies or on TV about guns, self defense and crime is wrong. When guns are misused because the person misread the situation or was operating from media stereotypes or popular mythology, jingoism, or bumper sticker philosophy they make things worse.


You know, I just agree with every single word here.

Yes, firearms ARE a deterrent. At the same time, guns don't solve ANYTHING by themselves. Guns don't stop crime. An armed scoiety is not necessarily a safe and polite society. There are simply to many other factors out there.

I very much support the idea that every sane, law-abiding honest citizen should be allowed to own a firearm without any major restricitons. That said, I don't believe increasing the rate of gun ownership would ultimately lead to a safe society where crime doesn't happen.

A gun is just a gun. It's a TOOL, no more, no less. In the hands of a trained and prepared invididual, a great means of offense as well as defense. But what worries me is that way too many people believe they're safe just because they own or carry a firearm. Nowadays, most of the good guys, average Joes and Janes, have very little time and will to become proficient with a firearm. They don't even have the mental and physical attributes. If you don't have what it takes to fight back (with weapons or bare hands if need be) no amount of gunpower in your hands will do any good.

Top
#178915 - 08/09/09 05:50 PM Re: Man in south Sacramento drives off attacking teens [Re: clearwater]
moab Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 30
Loc: England
At least your judiciary are not charging the "victim" with assaulting one of the muggers!!!!

An all too common occurence over here - plus a lengthy civil lawsuit ending in the "victim" paying up for giving the mugger night mares about knives.....

Top
Page 5 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5



Moderator:  Alan_Romania, Blast, chaosmagnet, cliff 
September
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
Who's Online
3 registered (Montanero, Tjin, NAro), 273 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
WonderW, Adrienne224, lupacexi, mattbpkt, John_Sarnik
5217 Registered Users
Newest Posts
Hurricane Irma-aftermath
by adam2
Today at 09:39 AM
Drones, Social Media & Disasters
by chaosmagnet
Today at 02:56 AM
And then there was Maria...
by Pete
Yesterday at 11:13 PM
Nuclear Targets-What are they?
by Teslinhiker
Yesterday at 10:37 PM
A View from Naples (Hurricane Irma)
by wildman800
Yesterday at 05:21 AM
Maxpedition deal at Woot
by Phaedrus
Yesterday at 05:14 AM
1950s Canadian Paranurses
by Roarmeister
Yesterday at 02:57 AM
Irma After-Action Report (Sarasota, FL)
by chaosmagnet
09/18/17 02:00 AM
Newest Images
Tiny knife / wrench
Handmade knives
2"x2" Glass Signal Mirror, Retroreflective Mesh
Trade School Tool Kit
My Pocket Kit
Glossary
Test

WARNING & DISCLAIMER: SELECT AND USE OUTDOORS AND SURVIVAL EQUIPMENT, SUPPLIES AND TECHNIQUES AT YOUR OWN RISK. Information posted on this forum is not reviewed for accuracy and may not be reliable, use at your own risk. Please review the full WARNING & DISCLAIMER about information on this site.