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#173720 - 05/24/09 03:25 AM The Perfect Survival Firearm
Hornfrog Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 26
Loc: Central Texas
Many “adventurists,” whether of the arm chair variety or for real, mourn the passing of an excellently designed survival firearm; the Springfield Armory M6 Survival 410GA/22Caliber Firearm. I truly believe it was the best thought out firearm ever of that rare category. The fact that the M6 is no longer available new for sale is a tough fact of life, being completely out of production. HOWEVER, if anyone out there is in the midst of redesigning such a firearm for eventual production and sale to the general public, I would like to offer some ideas for a freshly designed survival weapon. Of course the trick it to avoid the ultra high expense of the high-end German drillings. What I have in mind is still a product that is in the $150.00 to $500.00 price range.

Some will immediately disagree with my first concept; really more of an assumption. That is that most of us who often, really go out alone into the wilderness, already carry side arms intended to stop humans and/or bears. So, what I propose is simply accepting this fact. The problem with this for most is a pistol designed for such tasks is not good for general adventuring or survival. What I am saying is that I will always have the pistol with me but I also want to carry a well designed combo firearm designed and intended primarily for the hunting of a variety of edible game animals that is very light in weight. With this first concept a given, at least to me, I would now like to offer my suggestions:

1) The 22 Caliber should still be part of such a firearm for the simple fact that there is no other round like it in versatility, being inexpensive, universally available and the round being available in several configurations; shorts, longs, long rifle, silent, shotshell, etc. The thing I would like to see in a newly designed firearm is the option of single shot to semi-auto or bolt fed. While the single shot break action of the M6 forced the shooter to really focus to make each shot count and there is great value in that, the shooter should have enough ammo to be a little more generous in his firing. After all, the goal is to actually hit the live target and get to eat!

2) The other change is leaving off the 410GA and substituting either 20GA or 12GA, though the 12 seems too large for a light weight firearm of this type. And keep the single action configuration. While the 410GA did allow in some models (rifled 410GA barrels only for this) to fire the 45LC, that was not much of an advantage. I had personally rather have a 20GA round in many configurations and be able to carry 20 to 50 rounds anytime I go into the wild.

3) It might be possible to offer such a general design in different gauges and calibers in set models, much like the Savage Arms Combos. Perhaps the two barrels of such a firearm could be side-by-side instead of over/under. Some might prefer the rifle portion to be a 3006, 308, 30-30, 223, 45-70, 44mag or such, though I think a 22Cal/20GA combo would be the lightest and most popular.

4) While the M6 was much appreciated for its striped down efficiency and ultra light weight I would like to suggest a different ethic, though not inconsistent with some of the design elements of the M6.
a. For instance, more ergonomic design; comfortable hand-fit would be nice.
b. Hard rubber or plastic used for a minimal fore end and/or butt stock. Actual wood seems too extravagant for such a firearm but there might be some design wizard out there who could have elements of wood integral to this thing without taking away its utility.
c. Some kind of scope rails or attaching devices.
d. Would come with sling swivels installed.
e. Total weight of unloaded firearm not to exceed 4 pounds. The M6 weighs 2.5lbs. The Savage Combos top out at over 8lbs!
f. Still needs to be easily broken down into at least two pieces.
g. Minimum lengths for both barrels not to exceed the M6 to aid in lightness and utility.

Does anyone out there get what I am saying?
_________________________
"I had rather be right, than consistent" - Winston Churchill (Colquhoun - "Se je pui")

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#173722 - 05/24/09 03:58 AM Re: The Perfect Survival Firearm [Re: Hornfrog]
Chris Kavanaugh Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 3824
I was taught to handle the military Ithaca on which the late M6 was based. This included actual wing shots at clay birds with those expensive aluminum shells.
Still the system's #1 priority as set by the USAF was WIEGHT.
And truth be told most aircrewmen in our C 130s flying Alaska slipped something personal in their flight bags.
My personal piece(s) was made back east. It was called Hershey.
I've shot combination firearms from the M 6 to the Luftwaffe survival drilling with the 9.3x72 rimmed equal to a .375 H&H.
That is a confidence building weapon- if you have a Junkers to stow it in.
In theory they are great for mixed game hunting in the bavarian woods when every animal on a black forest clock may pop out, including the cuckoobird.
In real use they are always a compromise in handling, and even the popular Cape Gun of South Africa was eventually supplanted by rifles.
I refer back to Mel Tappen's tome. A centerbore rifle literally gives the most 'bang for the buck' in terms of sheer game wieght for expenditure. And to that end I have a SMLE with a bandolier of military FMJs and some handrolled 215 rhino bullets.
But mostly I still replenish my Hersheys, except I've upgraded to Trader Joes 73% organic dark cocoa.I do so, because even the Inuit find the caribou have changed migration routes without warning.
As for small game, 20' of S/S wire isn't as romantic as a'piece'but it's just as effective and even simpler to reload.


Edited by Chris Kavanaugh (05/24/09 04:02 AM)

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#173728 - 05/24/09 01:41 PM Re: The Perfect Survival Firearm [Re: Chris Kavanaugh]
HerbG Offline
Member

Registered: 02/12/07
Posts: 142
This is an interesting topic and Hornfrog has some well thought out ideas. The Savage combination guns in .22/20 ga. seem to be the most practical basis for an improved gun. A collapsible stock, as in the M4, an alloy receiver to reduce weight, a lighter synthetic forend, and a compact red dot sight like the Docter would be worthwhile improvements.

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#173733 - 05/24/09 04:45 PM Re: The Perfect Survival Firearm [Re: HerbG]
Jeff_M Offline
Addict

Registered: 07/18/07
Posts: 665
Loc: Northwest Florida
Setting aside ursine and bipedal predators, I think a .22LR revolver or semiauto, combined with a decent sighting system and a shoulder stock, would be a useful, lightweight and compact package. A revolver that also accepts .22WMR cylinders might be useful. Perhaps the stock could double as a watertight case/holster, similar to the old Mausers.

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#173734 - 05/24/09 06:35 PM Re: The Perfect Survival Firearm [Re: Jeff_M]
MoBOB Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 1219
Loc: here
If you are going to "always have the pistol with [you]", then I would only carry a shotgun. 12 or 20; your choice. I'm not sure how much you gain by having a second pistol caliber or second barrel of your carry pistol with you. Also,none of us can be sure of an "always" condition.

2 cents
_________________________
"Its not a matter of being ready as it is being prepared" -- B. E. J. Taylor

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#173737 - 05/24/09 08:04 PM Re: The Perfect Survival Firearm [Re: MoBOB]
frediver Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 215
Loc: N.Cal.
The M-6 was popular for a reason.
If any changes are made I would vote for:
#1. a plastic forend, could a scope mount be integrated?
#2. perhaps .22 hornet but its tough to beat plain .22 cal.

IMO stay with .410
Concerning the bird shot the .410 will hit just as hard as a 12ga, the only difference it the pattern density.

Why try to reinvent the wheel !

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#173738 - 05/24/09 08:06 PM Re: The Perfect Survival Firearm [Re: MoBOB]
Chris Kavanaugh Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 3824
It would be interesting to read the literature of actual survival stories and what part, and what configuration of a firearm took place.


Edited by Chris Kavanaugh (05/24/09 08:06 PM)

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#173739 - 05/24/09 08:54 PM Re: The Perfect Survival Firearm [Re: MoBOB]
Paul810 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 1428
Loc: NJ, USA
The thing that's kind of tough about a "one size fits all" survival gun, is, not everyone is surviving in the same place or has the same survival needs.

Here in NJ/PA, I could probably get away with a pump .410 shotgun. Largest thing I've got to worry about here is black bear, and they're pretty rare. Otherwise, the most dangerous thing out here is other people and the largest of the wild game is probably white tail deer, with most shots being at a reasonably close distance.

But, in places like Africa, Alaska, the Great Plains, and others.....the situation is different. There is larger game, larger predatory animals, you might have to take further shots, ect. For those places, you might need something else, like a .300/.338 Win Mag or other high powered rifle round. A .410 wouldn't really cut it. The opposite is true as well, a .338 Win Mag bolt gun wouldn't really be what I would want to carry through NJ/PA.

Therefore, what you carry can be very dependent on location and what your individual survival entails. I don't think there is any single firearm that can do everything, for every place, effectively. So, I don't put too much stock in having one "do all" survival gun. I'd rather have the right gun for task, if possible.

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#173740 - 05/24/09 10:41 PM Re: The Perfect Survival Firearm [Re: Hornfrog]
Hornfrog Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 26
Loc: Central Texas
It does not appear that the design of the M6 is being picked up by another manufacturer for production, so we must conclude no more will ever be available. So, a redesign is the only possible option.

Like I said in my first post, I like the M6 but IF a new design must be devised, then why not work to improve its over all design and usefulness. It is true that there is no one model of survival firearm perfect for every environment. That is why I think one general design with several models offering differing configurations would be the ideal (as the Savage Combo series has done only aiming for half the weight or less). Offerings like: Mix 22, 308, 223, 44, 338, 30-30, whatever with shotgun options in 20GA and 12GA; even 410 if folks prefer. All of these models to be made from high tech metals, rubbers and polymers with ergonomic design, a short as possible like the M6 to minimize weight. A “Survival Combo Carbine” if you wish. Someone made a great marketing and usefulness suggestion: It would be great if it came with the red dot sight and already fitted with swivels and sling.
_________________________
"I had rather be right, than consistent" - Winston Churchill (Colquhoun - "Se je pui")

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#173747 - 05/25/09 03:30 AM Re: The Perfect Survival Firearm [Re: Hornfrog]
Chris Kavanaugh Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 3824
IF I was going to build a combination weapon the shotgun tube would be 28 guage.This under appreciated shell will print as well as a 20 or 12 gauge with far less recoil.
The rifle cartridge would be the .30 US aka .30-40 Krag. This round falls in the lower pressure group but can load the potent 220 grain roundnose ( it's original loading.) for moose & bear.
The .30 Krag is also well known for 'squib load' friendly loading.
The problem, is that today's gunmakers will build actions around cartridges. One of the reasons the litle C 6 went out of production was in fact receiver issues with the .22 Hornet.
Buyers will want familiar cartridges like the .308 and 20-12 gauge. And even if the industry builds what they ask for, a fickle buyer will fail to buy in profitable numbers.


Edited by Chris Kavanaugh (05/25/09 03:31 AM)

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