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#172685 - 05/04/09 04:04 PM Teaching Survival to Kids
BruceZed Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 319
Loc: Canada
I just spent last week teaching Survival to two groups of grade 9's. Two nights for each group with night temperatures below zero in the Boreal Forest.

What scared me was how many reported during the first fire lighting session they had never lite a match or even a fire. As well as how many arrived out with runners and cotton clothing even when counseled not to.

They all survived and enjoyed the course, but the real problem is their is 1000's of Grade 9's that don't get any Outdoor Education in Alberta let alone the rest of NA. I think we need to push for more Outdoor Education in schools.
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Bruce Zawalsky
Chief Instructor
Boreal Wilderness Institute
boreal.net

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#172686 - 05/04/09 04:22 PM Re: Teaching Survival to Kids [Re: BruceZed]
Colourful Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 87
Loc: Yukon
Should be part of the curriculum.

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#172691 - 05/04/09 05:01 PM Re: Teaching Survival to Kids [Re: Colourful]
CANOEDOGS Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 1853
Loc: MINNESOTA
i would think that "up north" you would have a strong outdoor program for kids.i have been up that way and i know you don't have to go far before you are really out in the bush.

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#172692 - 05/04/09 05:01 PM Re: Teaching Survival to Kids [Re: Colourful]
Tyber Offline
Sheriff
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/27/09
Posts: 304
Loc: ST. Paul MN
I actually graduated from one of the only (at that time) Colleges that had Survival as a prerequisite to graduate with any Degree, from and AA in arts to a Degree in Out Door Rec.

Though I would say that most people I run across are ill prepared for any adversity, from a flat tire (thought not safe to change on the highways) to truly getting lost. One friend of mines survival plan is to just be near me. I find most of this appalling..

Kids these days seem happier to sit around and play games than to go out side and play.. Or I should say that kids around me seem to be that way.. Hell I ride my bike more than they ride there bikes.

I agree This should be standard teaching for children at an appropriate age.

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#172701 - 05/04/09 06:20 PM Re: Teaching Survival to Kids [Re: Tyber]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
I wouldn't mind teaching it more, only trying to get such curriculum in a formal classroom environment is not going to be supported by any administration, and even then, you will catch hell from the touchy-feely crowd, who's first conclusion will be that you are a survivalist nut that they don't want their children around.

We tried getting it in a community ed program and it got buried on the administrator's desk. He didn't want to say no to us exactly, but obviously wasn't interested in participating, despite already having a full class signed up beforehand.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
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#172711 - 05/04/09 07:49 PM Re: Teaching Survival to Kids [Re: BruceZed]
dougwalkabout Offline
Crazy Canuck
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 3219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Despite our vast wilderness, Canada's population is overwhelmingly urban, living in concrete deserts and relying on the grid to supply all necessities.

It's no surprise, then, that few teenagers have any exposure at all to wilderness. If they haven't seen it online or at the mall, it doesn't exist in their world. Even their parents are now separated from the pioneer/farm/wilderness experience by several generations. Survivorman et al is the closest they'll ever get.

To the thinking of a grade 9 student, the "uniform" of runners and cotton jeans is mandatory. Only when they actually freeze their butts off, in a serious way, will they start to see the value of appropriate clothing.

Generally, outdoor education has always been an extracurricular activity or a volunteer endeavour. The only way to get any traction is to tie it to core curriculum and teach the skills in that context. Science: how does a mouse or squirrel survive the winter. Environment: what's in the water; how does the carbon cycle capture, store and release energy. History: how did First Nations people thrive and survive. Social studies: what's it like to be homeless and on the street.

My $0.02.

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#172738 - 05/05/09 12:20 AM Re: Teaching Survival to Kids [Re: dougwalkabout]
Roarmeister Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 09/12/01
Posts: 960
Loc: Saskatchewan, Canada
It's a shame but I think some kids actually don't have any other kind of clothing besides jeans and cotton Ts. Especially some lower income people. Blame the parents as a good number of them don't know any better either.

And yes even when you specified no cotton (I suppose you gave the specific example of blue jeans and cotton Ts) some kids came with them because they really didn't have much else. Blue jeans may be relatively durable but I don't think they are even all that great for urbanites. I personally like cotton because of the feel but I prefer (far prefer) a nylon blend when it comes to outdoor activities.

As far as never lighting a match or starting a fire - my mother told me that a number of years ago as well. She said it was because there was always a man around to do it for her. Well, OK, putting aside 1950's and 60's social norms aside, I still found that statement surprising. Just about any kid has played with matches (even the ones reprimanded by their parents!) so I find that statement about the kids above almost as equally incredulous. I was playing with matches (and firecrackers) as soon as I knew how to! And of course I played RESPONSIBLY! (And if you believe that, I have some swampland to sell you... smile

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#172753 - 05/05/09 03:07 AM Re: Teaching Survival to Kids [Re: Roarmeister]
dougwalkabout Offline
Crazy Canuck
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 3219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By: Roarmeister
It's a shame but I think some kids actually don't have any other kind of clothing besides jeans and cotton Ts. Especially some lower income people. Blame the parents as a good number of them don't know any better either.


It doesn't seem like a money issue to me. I regularly go to a a variety of secondhand stores around here and pick up decent quality fleece pullovers, wool sweaters and pants, for next to nothing.

The other option is to post an ad on Craigslist of Kijiji and get a ton of appropriate stuff for free. There's always a way.

I think it goes deeper. I think being cold and wet, and having no warm building or vehicle to go to, is so far from their experience that they just can't imagine it.

You can talk all you want, but a lot of people don't really believe something until it actually bites them. Teenagers doubly so.

Perhaps the way to teach fabrics and properties (which rates alongside water as the bedrock of survival around here) is to show up with all sorts of donated wool and fleece stuff. Give them the background principles, and when they start to really freeze, let them choose stuff or even cut stuff up with crash scissors to make hobo/survivor clothes. The sleeve off a fleece/wool pullover makes an effective toque plus a muffler handwarmer or sock, etc. Actually, this could be a lot of fun, sort of a teambuilding exercise, since everybody dresses kind of the same, and logos don't matter.




Edited by dougwalkabout (05/05/09 03:09 AM)

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#172769 - 05/05/09 03:22 PM Re: Teaching Survival to Kids [Re: dougwalkabout]
Be_Prepared Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/07/04
Posts: 530
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: dougwalkabout

You can talk all you want, but a lot of people don't really believe something until it actually bites them. Teenagers doubly so.

I'm with you; I have a troop full of them, and it's amazing how much discomfort they will endure to avoid doing something that remotely makes sense! I will have guys on a hike, and it starts pouring. Most of us pull out a poncho or rain shell, but, some of my brain dead teens will wait until they are soaked to the skivies before they'll consider doing anything about it. Mind you, they have a pack full of appropriate gear, they just choose not to use it... In winter, they would be borderline hypothermic if we let them before they'd start adding layers on their own... one of them, I have to acknowledge, is my own, ahhhh, issue. My wife says the brain dead teen genes came from my side of the family, but, I've seen her brothers kids in action, so I'm sure it's not all my fault. wink
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#172772 - 05/05/09 03:46 PM Re: Teaching Survival to Kids [Re: Be_Prepared]
KenK Offline
"Be Prepared"
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 2208
Loc: NE Wisconsin
Welcome to my world ... of Boy Scouts.

Every year my son's troop receives 5-8 11 year old boys who have maybe spent a handfull of nights in a tent with dad (sometimes mom). They've never had to be involved in packing for trips, planing ahead for weather, buying food, cooking, cleaning, being near fire - let alone lighting matches, or handling anything sharper than a butter knife.

Many of them have really not spent any time away from their parents, except for school ... and even then, some of them are home-schooled and have NEVER been away from home or parents.

Its great to see them grow. Parents are absolutely SHOCKED when their sons head into the grocery store with their patrol-mates and start buying food with no adult assistance.

The weekend before last the troop headed out on a weekend campout. Friday's weather was beautiful. Near 70F and sunny. BUT the weather forecast for Saturday was for temperatures to drop into the 40's with heavy rain. Fully half the boys arrived packing nothing but cotton shorts and cotton t-shirts ... and when it would rain they wouldn't bother putting rain gear on, but rather would change into dry cotton clothes every so often. Eventually the dry clothes ran out and they found themselves FREEZING. By darkfall Saturday night parents had to be called to come get them. BTW, several of the boys had been camping with the troop for 3 years!

They still don't seem to want to carry knives. Not sure why. I think the school has grilled into them that carrying knives is, well, something just not done. Most of them have a knife in their pack though.

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#172773 - 05/05/09 05:16 PM Re: Teaching Survival to Kids [Re: KenK]
Mike_H Offline
Addict

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 612
Loc: SE PA
KenK,

I hear your pain... I just had an outdoor skills weekend with the Scouts this past weekend. Mind you, we are all adults in the training.

Well, one of the presenters was talking about backpacking. He had a good assortment of gear and fully understood the choice of proper fabrics and not becoming a "smellable" for bear and keeping food in a bear bag. Afterwards, I asked him what he carried on his person, hoping he would state some survival gear. Nope... nada... Mostly just a map and compass, the rest being in his bag, not even matches. I asked him what would happen if he lost his pack. He went on about the buddy system and that he would be able to navigate with the compass, yada yada yada.

I was just amazed at how little survival training plays out in the scouts. You would think it should be part of training, but it really isn't.

Needless to say, the members of my "patrol" were impressed at what I had in the pockets of my switchbacks.

Mike
ASM - Officially trained... finally!
_________________________
"I reject your reality and substitute my own..." - Adam Savage / Mythbusters

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#172785 - 05/05/09 07:46 PM Re: Teaching Survival to Kids [Re: KenK]
BruceZed Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 319
Loc: Canada
We get the same silliness up here that Knives are a weapon not a tool that can be misused. Anytime you can teach basic self reliance youth seem to respond well as a group and getting them to be responsible for there own packing and preparing in just excellent training.
_________________________
Bruce Zawalsky
Chief Instructor
Boreal Wilderness Institute
boreal.net

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#173625 - 05/21/09 03:05 AM Re: Teaching Survival to Kids [Re: KenK]
Tia Offline
Stranger

Registered: 03/22/09
Posts: 6
I know this conversation's last week's news, but I had to comment! Don't know if homeschooling has anything to do with being sheltered, ROFL. You should see our gals in trees. Lighting fires. Cooking. Anyway, I work with one cluster of two GS troops and another with four GS troops, all homeschooled -- and have concluded that maybe some of the girls have no nerve endings. Yep. That's gotta be it! One family had to have two experiences with hypothermia to really get it. WET JEANS = NO FUN. NO RAIN GEAR = LOUSY TIME. Now I'm requiring Pack Check. Let's see if they bring it all tomorrow or not! Since I've hit the thrift shops with them twice, raided my own closet, and hit Freecycle for them, they'd BETTER BE PREPARED. All I've got to say for tonight. Cross your fingers if you're reading this.

PS: my canoe instructor told me, not two weeks ago, what to do when scouts bring Crocs or flip-flops boating (after you've told them not to and made appropriate gear FREE or cheaply available through various means). He said "duct tape their shoes on. Only takes one time. 'specially if they have hairy feet."
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Homeschooling Girl Scout Leader

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#173634 - 05/21/09 08:59 AM Re: Teaching Survival to Kids [Re: Tia]
joost Offline
Stranger

Registered: 04/13/09
Posts: 12
Loc: The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Tia
what to do when scouts bring Crocs or flip-flops boating


To be fair, crocs were actually originally developed for boating: non-marking and grippy soles. They look hideous, were possibly one of the most over-hyped products in recent memory and all the nonsense models were truly for suckers, but the original crocs aren't a bad product really.

I used to be a sailing instructor and flip-flops on boats really is a recipe for disaster.

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#173635 - 05/21/09 10:42 AM Re: Teaching Survival to Kids [Re: joost]
UncleGoo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 390
Loc: CT
Originally Posted By: joost
...flip-flops on boats really is a recipe for disaster.
Probably weren't appropriate for a ponyride in old Florida, either. grin
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Realize.

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