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#169104 - 03/11/09 06:07 AM Re: Best steel for kitchen knives? [Re: Eric]
Tom_L Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/19/07
Posts: 690
Quote:
I have heard that the European manufacturers use a lot of the 425M, 12C27, 440A types of steel which are all pretty similar alloys, but I can not readily confirm who is using what.


That's pretty much what I've been able to find out as well, though many European brands don't advertise the exact type of steel they're using. I know for a fact many knives in Solingen are made of 425M (an alloy with a significant percentage of Molybdenum) - they're often marked Molybdenum on the blade.

I'm not sure how popular 12C27 is in Germany but quite a few French knifemakers use it regularly. 1.4116 is also fairly common. Anyway, most European-made kitchen cutlery except for the very lowest end seems to be made of something better than just plain 420. Also, the heat-treatment tends to be pretty good for what those knives are supposed to do. People scoff at stuff like 425M but in my experience, it performs very well in some of the Solingen knives I own.

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#169106 - 03/11/09 07:12 AM Re: Best steel for kitchen knives? [Re: Tom_L]
scafool Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 1534
Loc: Muskoka
Originally Posted By: Tom_L
People scoff at stuff like 425M but in my experience, it performs very well in some of the Solingen knives I own.

Well the moly modifies the grain making it smaller and tighter. Moly also makes a hard carbide in the alloy.
This means higher edge strength and higher edge holding. The result is they can use narrower edge angles which really improves the slicing ability of the edge.

Again, I am not a metallurgist and what makes the best knives for kitchen use is dependent on just what job the knife does.

If it was just about the sharpness and corrosion resistance then the answer would be Kyocera ceramics.
They are great for doing fruit or salad prep. They do not taint anything and they are so sharp that cut surfaces even resist normal oxidation because the food enzymes are not released.

To bad their extreme brittleness and the price rule them out for most people.
Drop a Kyocera knife on the floor and you are picking up broken pieces, hit anything hard like a bone and the edge has a missing piece that you have to find before serving it.
You can buy 10 Victorinox paring knives for the cost of one Kyocera paring knife, and I really don't want or need a straight razor's edge to peel onions or potatoes.
Some companies have been playing with Titanium knives, but again the edge is not enough better to justify the price.

I mentioned the powder crucible steels before, but what I would really love to see is something in glassy metal.
Glassy metals are very much the technology of the future. (DARPA)
The price at the moment is still pretty high, more than $10 a pound, but it might come down.

More about glassy metals from Liquidmetal Technologies
http://www.liquidmetal.com/index/
http://www.liquidmetal.com/news/dsp.news.04x104.asp
_________________________
May set off to explore without any sense of direction or how to return.

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#169126 - 03/11/09 02:44 PM Re: Best steel for kitchen knives? [Re: scafool]
KG2V Offline

Veteran

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 1371
Loc: Queens, New York City
Kitchen Knives are kinda strange steel wise. Generally, pro chefs don't want a very hard edge, in fact, they like it kinda soft, exactly for the reason of chipping.

I don't know if it still holds true, but I know when Grandpa was a chef, the average chef kept 2 sets of knives - one was out being sharpened, while the other was being used, and you swapped weeks. During the week, you just steeled your knife. They were more worried about being able to put a good edge on FAST than in HOLDING the edge (usually the better a steel holds the edge, the harder it is to sharpen)

Right now, I own 2+ sets of chef knifes. What's left of Grandpa's knives (OLD Sabietier - rehandled more than once, ground down so much they are triangular instead of curved), a couple of knifes Dad bought when Grandpa's knifes started getting too worn, and the 3-4 knives I bought when I got married, and needed my own knives (plus the 1 I got as a gift, which I almost never use - I hate 8" chef's knives - prefer a 10")

BTW am I the only person who uses 4" pairing knives as "table knives"
_________________________
73 de KG2V
You are what you do when it counts - The Masso
Homepage: http://www.thegallos.com
Blog: http://kg2v.blogspot.com

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#169138 - 03/11/09 05:23 PM Re: Best steel for kitchen knives? [Re: KG2V]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
Originally Posted By: KG2V_was_kc2ixe
. . . BTW am I the only person who uses 4" pairing knives as "table knives"
Nope, 4" kitchen knives are ideal for the table. I even have a 4" tactical steak knife -- ATS-34 steel, kydex sheath -- originally sold as a Bird & Trout smile
_________________________
Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

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#169142 - 03/11/09 06:01 PM Re: Best steel for kitchen knives? [Re: Russ]
Tom_L Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/19/07
Posts: 690
Quote:
I don't know if it still holds true, but I know when Grandpa was a chef, the average chef kept 2 sets of knives - one was out being sharpened, while the other was being used, and you swapped weeks. During the week, you just steeled your knife. They were more worried about being able to put a good edge on FAST than in HOLDING the edge (usually the better a steel holds the edge, the harder it is to sharpen)


I have a relative who works as a chef and a friend who runs a butcher's shop. Both would agree with that wholeheartedly. Those folks use knives all the time, mostly for precision cutting stuff like vegetables and meat - very soft materials by nature. So what they need is a super fine edge that can be fixed quickly when necessary (ideally steeled). Hardness and edge retention are way secondary and indeed, a very hard edge might well be counterproductive.

I've also noticed the pros tend to keep a couple of designated knives specifically for heavier cutting (bones etc.). A thicker edge is better for that kind of work and lasts longer. But of course it's not meant for any other work in the kitchen.

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#169167 - 03/11/09 10:14 PM Re: Best steel for kitchen knives? [Re: Tom_L]
drahthaar Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/06
Posts: 110
My s/o is a professional cook.

The best knife is one that you can keep sharp and know how to use.

Those $25 Victorinox Forschner knives are just fine.

I foolishly spent a fortune on kitchen knives (hand forged Japanese steel, custom made s30v blades, an so forth) before I learned this.

Go to a quality store where they will actually let you try out the knives cutting some carrots or something and see what feels best in your hand. I'm fond of the Wusthof grand prix series.

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