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#166421 - 02/04/09 05:54 PM Re: Carrying 4 pounds of shelter and warmth [Re: quick_joey_small]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 952
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Originally Posted By: quickjoeysmall
I wrote to Wiggys and Jerry Wigutow promptly replied that my idea wouldn't work:

it would actually be 'detrimental to the function of my bags'

'If you use a waterproof layer on the bottom of the bag you will get condensation and then water. If cold enough the water will freeze.

'a waterproof material that has the capacity to be vapor permeable [does not] exist.

oh well it seemed a good idea at the time.
QJS


My hunting partner has a Wiggy's bivy bag that is insulated
and COATED. And heavy.

I do think one of his synthetic bags would be a good choice
(as would a kelty, campmore, slumberjack etc.) for a truck,
boat, plane kit. I just don't think they are anything special.

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#166424 - 02/04/09 06:57 PM Re: Carrying 4 pounds of shelter and warmth [Re: clearwater]
quick_joey_small Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 411
Loc: UK
clearwater wrote:

>I would like to see where you get your information about the
>down losing its insulative value.

It was a Trail Magazine article (a uk mag)based on experiments they had a university carry out for them.

http://www.livefortheoutdoors.com/Commun...mp;start-page=0

see Graham Thompsons reply to a query on 14 August 2007 10:12

QJS

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#166428 - 02/04/09 07:41 PM Re: Carrying 4 pounds of shelter and warmth [Re: quick_joey_small]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 952
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Originally Posted By: quickjoeysmall
clearwater wrote:

>I would like to see where you get your information about the
>down losing its insulative value.

It was a Trail Magazine article (a uk mag)based on experiments they had a university carry out for them.

http://www.livefortheoutdoors.com/Commun...mp;start-page=0

see Graham Thompsons reply to a query on 14 August 2007 10:12

QJS


I don't see the results here, only the mention.

Here is a thread on another board about compression of down.
Optimal insulation comes from compressing down 2 and 1/2 times.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/...&startat=20

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#166430 - 02/04/09 07:50 PM Re: Carrying 4 pounds of shelter and warmth [Re: quick_joey_small]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3077

Most good down bags will be supplied with a much larger cotton bag for storage, so that the down is not stored compressed.

The best down bags will be half the weight of the best synthetic bags. The only downsides to down is you have to ensure that the down bag does not get damp or wet as this will lose the downs ability to loft properly and the ability to keep the sleeping bag clean. Sythentic bags can be regularly washed in a washing machine unlike down bags so a liner for a down bag is a good idea. A Pertex or Silk liner is recommended.

Down will also last considerable longer than any synthetic bag in keeping its lofting properties for much longer periods of time. Its probably good practice to keep any sleeping bag whether synthetic or down dry. Sleeping in a wet bag, whether down or synthetic is pretty horrible. If using a bivvi bag then it's probably not a good idea to use a down bag with a non MVP material. This also applies to the sythetic bag also to a slightly lesser extent.

A good down bag also has that comfortable cosy feeling that is very difficult to achieve with a synthetic bag simply becuase the way the down draps across the body.




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#166437 - 02/04/09 08:30 PM Re: Carrying 4 pounds of shelter and warmth [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 952
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

Most good down bags will be supplied with a much larger cotton bag for storage, so that the down is not stored compressed.

The best down bags will be half the weight of the best synthetic bags. The only downsides to down is you have to ensure that the down bag does not get damp or wet as this will lose the downs ability to loft properly and the ability to keep the sleeping bag clean. Sythentic bags can be regularly washed in a washing machine unlike down bags so a liner for a down bag is a good idea. A Pertex or Silk liner is recommended.

Down will also last considerable longer than any synthetic bag in keeping its lofting properties for much longer periods of time. Its probably good practice to keep any sleeping bag whether synthetic or down dry. Sleeping in a wet bag, whether down or synthetic is pretty horrible. If using a bivvi bag then it's probably not a good idea to use a down bag with a non MVP material. This also applies to the sythetic bag also to a slightly lesser extent.

A good down bag also has that comfortable cosy feeling that is very difficult to achieve with a synthetic bag simply becuase the way the down draps across the body.




Ditto on the storage in a large breathable bag.

I have found that down will withstand considerable more
washings than synthetics. Just one trip through a hot dryer
will destroy the loft of synthetics (having worked where we
had to launder dozens of client/student bags after each outing). While I have washed down coats and sleeping bags
dozens of times with no obvious harm.

The danger with washing down is the stitching and baffles
inside can be damaged by the heavy clumps of down tumbling
around inside the washing machine, or being torn if handled
too roughly.

The synthetics dry much faster, the key in cleaning
is to avoid heat. Cold wash, hang dry.

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#166460 - 02/05/09 12:58 AM Re: Carrying 4 pounds of shelter and warmth [Re: 2005RedTJ]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2183
Loc: Deep south... Carolina
Originally Posted By: 2005RedTJ
I differentiate between the 2 quite easily. For me, camping means throwing the cargo rack on my Jeep and loading it down. I've not yet got into backpacking, so I have no experience in that style of camping.

My camping experiences always involve a big tent, EZ-Up canopy, 2 sleeping bags, a propane heater with 20-pound tank, a queen-sized air mattress, full-size pillows and everything else I can think of to make my weekend comfortable. Then again, my campsite is roughly 10 feet from my Jeep, so I don't have to hump all that stuff on my back.

That said, I have been getting tired of carrying so much stuff and am leaning towards paring down what I carry. But, I want to start off with little steps and not just jump off the deep end. I'm waiting for summer to try my hand at camping sans tent, just using an ultralight tarp.


Geez, that sounds nicer than the house I'm renting right now!

Why is it if I'm not semi-cold, dirty, and cooking over a tiny fire, then it's not "camping" in my mind? (Yeah, I'm biased, sue me! LOL)

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#166469 - 02/05/09 03:17 AM Re: Carrying 4 pounds of shelter and warmth [Re: MDinana]
2005RedTJ Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/07/09
Posts: 475
Loc: Birmingham, Alabama
Originally Posted By: MDinana

Geez, that sounds nicer than the house I'm renting right now!

Why is it if I'm not semi-cold, dirty, and cooking over a tiny fire, then it's not "camping" in my mind? (Yeah, I'm biased, sue me! LOL)


Yeah, when I'm camping with my Jeep at the offroad park, I've typically brought a LOT with me. I've even hauled my 4-burner gas grill out there before, along with 6 t-bone steaks, hamburgers, Dale's marinade, a half-gallon of Captain Morgan's and a case or two of cokes.

Once it gets warmer out, I'm going to start paring it down a lot. Tarp instead of a tent, pad instead of a queen-sized air mattress, small camp stove, etc. I want to spend a lot more time actually enjoying camping IN the outdoors and less hiding FROM the outdoors with all that junk.

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#167489 - 02/21/09 05:02 PM Re: Carrying 4 pounds of shelter and warmth [Re: 2005RedTJ]
PureSurvival Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/09
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
Please note that this post was deleted in error. I apologize to Adrian and have unbanned his account. By way of explanation, we have had a problem with people copying articles from other sites and posting on ETS. We also have a major problem with people plagerising from ETS and have had to initiate legal action in a number of cases. So, the words "plagerism" in a moderator notification are a huge red flag. Add to that the fact
that it was only his second post on ETS, a clasic Spammer or Troll profile, and it raised even more flags I should have spent more time investigating, for which I apologize. I didn't make the connection with his between his screen name and his Web site, my only poor excuse being that I was running ragged on only a couple hours sleep at the time.

Having said all that, as a general comment for all reading this, re-posting all or most of an entire article is usually not a good idea, even if it is your own work. Better is to provide a short summary and a link.



Edited by Doug_Ritter (02/25/09 02:20 PM)
Edit Reason: I screwed up

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#167519 - 02/21/09 10:45 PM Re: Carrying 4 pounds of shelter and warmth [Re: PureSurvival]
falcon5000 Offline
Addict

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 662
Here's some advice from western mountaineering on returning a down bag to original loft. Down bags can actually take quite an abuse they may need washed occasionally to restore the loft if you have very oily skin and don't wear a t shirt or what have you to keep the oil out of the bags. I have 2 down bags from western mountaineering and 1 synthetic bag from North Face and I never use the synthetic bag any more due to the warmth, weight and durability of the down bag that I have. The down bags I have should last me a lifetime if cared for and they are so comfortable to sleep in compared to my North face. I try to always carry my bag everywhere I go and is worth the weight.

Also listen to this pod cast, he goes into great detail of how to bring the loft of the down bag back to factory loft, it's toward the end of the interview under maintenance of the bag.

Western Mountaineering Podcast Interview
Robert Butler speaks with Gary Schaezlein, owner and co-founder of Western Mountaineering

Pod Cast

----------------------------------------------------
Care of Down Link

You can protect the inside of the bag from sweat and body oils by wearing a tee shirt, shorts and socks. This will do the same as sheets on a bed.

When you store your bag put it into a large breathable storage sack. Do not leave it stuffed in its stuff sack or in a plastic bag for long periods of time. Air dry your bag in the sun or in a tumble dryer before storing it.

At some point you'll need to clean your bag. Don't let this frighten you! The best way is to hand wash it in a bath tub or you can use a front loading washing machine. Never use a top loading or agitator machine as this can damage the baffle construction. Only use a soap especially prepared for down products. Dry cleaning is not recommended since the solvents can strip away natural oils contained in the down.

When you hand wash, fill the tub with warm water, add down soap and put the bag in the tub. A tip here is to keep your bag in its stuff sack and put the whole thing underwater. That way air has already been forced out of the bag and you won't have to fight air filled baffles floating to the surface. A Gore Windstopper bag should first be turned inside out before being put into the tub. Carefully pull the bag from its stuff sack and gently knead the soapy water through the bag.

It may be necessary to change the soapy water more than once, but don't over do it. When you are satisfied that your bag is clean be prepared to rinse it with clear water several times. It is important that all of the soap is removed from the down before it is dried. If in doubt rinse again; five or more rinses are not uncommon. Do not wring water from your sleeping bag, instead drain the tub and then roll the bag up tightly and carefully to remove all of the water. Use both hands (and caution) when picking the sleeping bag up, as it may be heavy from any water still trapped inside the baffle chambers. A washing machine that will allow you to select additional spin cycles will remove more water and save dryer time. Find a large dryer with good heat control, and set to low heat. Be sure there are no nicks, burrs, or other sharp items inside the dryer that may damage the shell fabric on your bag. Feel around inside the dryer with your hand to be certain. Once you begin drying, watch for hot spots on the dryer drum that could melt the nylon shell. If in doubt use the no heat setting. A couple of clean tennis balls tossed in with the bag will help break up clumps of down and give you something to look at. Be careful! Don't just tumble your bag till it feels dry, that may not be enough. Carefully feel the down insulation. If you still feel lumps, no matter how small, then your down is still wet! Break a twenty and add more quarters. It may take two or more hours depending on your bag, but you will have a clean sleeping bag back to its original loft.

Relofting your down sleeping bag before a trip is a good idea and can easily be done at home. Place your bag in a tumble dryer and set it to low heat. This will allow the down clusters to open fully. Always check the inside of your dryer for hot spots that can melt the nylon shell.

Water Management
The fear of a wet bag is the most cited reason for people to avoid down. This is a mistake. Any bag that is wet is miserable to sleep in and that is why it's so important to keep your gear dry. You'll find it's a skill easier to learn than map reading. Consider all the avenues available to keep your bag dry, like tents, bivys, and proper camp placement. Then consider the number of times your sleeping bag has gotten wet to the extent that it could not be used. Catastrophic wetting is extremely rare and is an indicator of other problems. You may find that you have indeed mastered the skill of staying dry. All shell fabrics used by Western Mountaineering are treated with a surface Durable Water Repellent finish (DWR) with an 80/20 rating. This is more than sufficient to shrug off dew and condensation. And, DWR's can be easily reapplied as time wears them thin.
_________________________
Failure is not an option!
USMC Jungle Environmental Survival Training PI 1985

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#167544 - 02/22/09 03:57 AM Re: Carrying 4 pounds of shelter and warmth [Re: falcon5000]
Chris Kavanaugh Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 3824
If anyone wishes to assign ignorance of insulation to Jerry of Wiggy's, kindly do yourself the favour of actually reading his in depth articles.
Jerry is (in)famous for his combative nature.Even our own Doug got a withering reply to our annual April Fool's column. I think a good portion is the nasty bear baiting of an industry that ill appreciates anyone pointing out 'the emperor has no insulation!'
People, companies sell STUFF. Some STUFF is just STUFF, and often more properly something you spread on a newly seeded lawn from 20 lb sacks.
I am always told anecdotaly of Wiggy bags that lose loft and 'go flat.'
Well, mine did. I actually had to WASH IT per instructions. And wouldn't you know it, when all else fails reading instructions often fixes a problem.
The bags are garanteed. I wish somebody would produce a bag to Jerry so he can see what is happening rather than join in the widow weeds insulated Fates intent on snipping his life thread short.
Yes, Wiggys are bulky, and heavy. So are most bags of any value. If you can't handle that sad fact of life body bags are relatively lightwieght and roll up nicely.


Edited by Chris Kavanaugh (02/22/09 04:01 AM)

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