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#164937 - 01/25/09 01:51 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: Craig_phx]
JohnnyRocket Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/27/06
Posts: 13
i]"Unfortunately the only way to teach children that it's not safe out here is to let them get hurt sometimes. You just make sure that it's minor.

Cut fingers, burns and bruises teach. "[/i]



The advice above should be avoided at all costs This is teaching by using a negative reenforcement and it is absolutely wrong when teaching children. You can teach adults using this method because they are old enough to make thier own decisions, children are not! I was an industrial arts teacher for years, never, NEVER did I let a kid get hurt so they would "learn something". I taught 250 kids a year and NEVER had an accident. Fear will only push them away from the message you are trying to share and possibly open yourself up to litigation. Create a positive atomosphere where the kids feel comfortable doing and trying the skills that you are working on. Guide those individuals that need help and let those that seem to have it, do it, and show others. Help create leaders and build confidence and you will see team work and mastery of skills and your program will GROW! Wouldn't it be cool if little Johnny had so much fun, he brought a buddy along? Isn't that better than trying to explain to Johnny's parents how he cut his hand or why he had to go to the hospital?

Tom

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#164944 - 01/25/09 02:45 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: Craig_phx]
KenK Offline
"Be Prepared"
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 2208
Loc: NE Wisconsin
Craig,

Those pics are AWESOME! I'll try to find a way to share them with the PLC in my son's troop.

His troop doesn't have a website yet. Still, I take lots of pics - I'm the guy who's always running around with a camera.

What were the temperatures there?

The thermometer says its 7F out right now. Kinda cold.

Ken

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#164958 - 01/25/09 04:29 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: JohnnyRocket]
dougwalkabout Offline
Crazy Canuck
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 3219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By: JohnnyRocket
i]"Unfortunately the only way to teach children that it's not safe out here is to let them get hurt sometimes. You just make sure that it's minor.

Cut fingers, burns and bruises teach. "[/i]


The advice above should be avoided at all costs ...

Tom


Even though I would never put a child in harm's way if it could be avoided, I think there is a kernel of truth in Leigh's post.

Despite the best instruction, demonstration, practice and positive reinforcement, some kids just don't believe tools and fires are really dangerous until they have a close brush with them.

My $0.02.

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#164961 - 01/25/09 04:36 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: JohnnyRocket]
Desperado Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 1530
Loc: DFW, Texas
I don't think anyone was advocating endangering a child with power tool or the like. I remember 7th grade industrial arts class, it was shop back then. My teacher had us working with tin and snips. Sounds relatively harmless right. He even warned that the cut edges of the tin was sharp. I must have been in the bathroom for that part, because I had to learn the hard way.

I do remember that the cut edges of tin are sharp.
_________________________
I do the things that I must, and really regret, are unfortunately necessary.

RIP OBG

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#164982 - 01/25/09 08:50 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: KenK]
Craig_phx Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 04/05/05
Posts: 715
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Ken,

It is nice to hear from you again. I think it is great that Scouters can share outdoor skill ideas here.

The winter survival camp-out was in the 40s during the day and in the 20s in the morning. Last year it was in the low teens. There was almost no wind, so it didn't feel very cold. You can look at all our pictures by clicking the little color circle in the lower right hand corner and then clicking on the Troop824 link.

I might be able to help with your Troop website. I wrote ours using TextPad. I am using Google's calendar, Blog and Picasa. It takes up about 80 MBs but most of that are older photo albums. I am willing to share my code if you are interested.

If you download Picasa you can upload albums that we can all look at. Later you can create sideshow links you can put in your website.

Almost everything in the website is click-able. All the rank, position and merit badge patches link to a BSA website with the current requirements and responsibilities.

The Black Canyon Trail is one of my favorite slide shows. It was a 10 mile hike. I took lots of pictures of spring flowers. There are also pictures of my wife, sons and myself. The dessert was in full bloom.
_________________________
Thermo-regulate, hydrate and communicate.

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#164985 - 01/25/09 10:15 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: JohnnyRocket]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
I'm not sure if you are missing the point, or telling a tall tale.

Never had a kid slip with a screw driver and stick his hand? Never had one slam his thumb with a hammer? Or get his knuckles kissed by the belt or disk sander? I don't buy it. We aren't talking about taking your thumb off in the table saw or putting the drill press through your hand, we are talking about booboos. I respect disk sanders becuase I buffed the skin of a knuckle when I was in shop class- I made a mistake, and everyone in the class learned from it.

We aren't talking about carving the kids up or burning them intentionally. We are talking about admitting that people have accidents. Even the best of us have bad days and moments of inattention, and then "owwwww". If you can do 250 kids per year, and never have one of them draw blood, or get singed if you are doing anything with metal, or get a little zap if you have electronics, then I really have to ask what you are really doing. I'm not trying to be insulting, but I went to a technical college. It is like a great big shop class. IQs quite a bit higher than average, everyone really wants to be there, most of us had been working with this stuff for a couple years already in some form, and we'd all had the safety briefings. Never saw a semester where someone didn't get hurt in the machine shop, or the automotive lab, or civil lab area, or the electronics lab. Not major, but someone having to regrow a couple of fingerprints, or pick up a scar, or sticking their finger into something live and quite a bit more than 12VDC, or find out the hard what that yes, this is why you wear steel toes and be glad you still have ten toes. It happens when you aren't 100% or you bite off more than you can chew, and everyone has bad days and worse luck.

You know, the whole reason this place exists.
_________________________
-IronRaven

When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

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#165042 - 01/26/09 01:00 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: ironraven]
enolson484 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/26/08
Posts: 20
Loc: SW Missouri
I'm glad I was able to get this thread going. A lot of great ideas and a good discussion. I always emphasize safety.

...I had posted something much longer, but my wi-fi took a dump and lost it all. I'll try and post it later, when I don't want to put my fist through the screen.


Edited by enolson484 (01/26/09 01:04 PM)
_________________________
E. N. Olson

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#165102 - 01/26/09 07:06 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: Craig_phx]
Mike_H Offline
Addict

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 612
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: Craig_phx
The winter survival camp-out was in the 40s during the day and in the 20s in the morning.

Just got back from a Scout weekend myself. It was -12 Sunday morning. For most of the day on Saturday it was around 5 with flurries.

We did some various survival training scenarios outdoors. I ran the fire starting one. Believe it or not, they had a VERY hard time starting and sustaining a fire. We did a post mortem afterwards and I sent them back out later in the day. This time, every group had a fire going with their first cotton ball and fire lay.

Many great posts about teaching kids differently than adults. So true, so true. Their attention span is much different. Every now and then, you will get one that really soaks up the information.
_________________________
"I reject your reality and substitute my own..." - Adam Savage / Mythbusters

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#165615 - 01/29/09 05:07 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: Mike_H]
enolson484 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/26/08
Posts: 20
Loc: SW Missouri
Well, the first class, Survival 101, has been postponed until Feb 9. Our meeting/class was canceled due to the heinous weather we just went through in the Ozarks. Over 100K without power, projections look like a lot of folks won't get back on the grid until mid-February. One more topic on my list of potential survival situations. My wife and I were well prepared: bathtub full of water, 25G of water in 5-5G cans filled and staged inside, 2-burner camp stove filled and ready, 1 propane and 2 white gas lanterns ready to go, and ample food supplies, including MREs. I have 16 cases on hand and I always have 10 gallons of white gas and 6 2.5 pound bottles of propane available. I use up a gallon or a bottle, and it gets replaced on the next trip to the store.
_________________________
E. N. Olson

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#165618 - 01/29/09 05:37 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: enolson484]
dougwalkabout Offline
Crazy Canuck
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 3219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
That's too bad.

The speculative part of me wonders if having the scouts, parents and leaders together in the thick of it would have focused everyone's attention and smoothed the way forward. But I realize that, in practical terms, that would just be a massive bloody headache.

Idea: call all your scouts' parents and ask, with all sincerity, how they're 'surviving' the storm. Might get some wheels turning.

Anyway, stay safe.


Edited by dougwalkabout (01/29/09 05:37 PM)

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